XBAR's Nightmare

[aj]

There is a Pelton from around the Hays Kansas area. They had registered Simmentals and over the years they morphed into the Red Angus. They have have both now and combinations of composites in between. They have a very successfull production sale. Customers know the breeding program and trust the philosophy. The cattle all look very similar and have been selected in a similar fashion. Its not really a pull a fast one an raise a f1 to sell but a constant selection.....long term program.

 

[aj]

peltonsimangus.com

 

[RyanChandler]

In my 3 breed rotation I was talking about using pb bulls from each breed and one more thing, other than hiearchy and elitism the goals for production are the same and whatever breed or breed combination that does it for you is the best system for you.

Couldn't agree more  (thumbsup)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think the idea is to have a better idea of what x-bred cattle are:and what crosses work for different situations.. Every breedfrom Angus to Zebu is the next BIG THING and hybrid vigor-improver (no pun intended) advantage-the way you prove cattle-is to effectively cross with other breeds or permutations-and have some idea of how you arrived there in terms of the genetic background:along with the results.-Im all for it O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

To compare the recording of mongrels to the systematic breeding and creation of stabilized composites like Santa Gertrudis and Beefmaster is a joke.

I agree with everything Okotoks is saying.// I agree with all but the "stabilized Beefmasters"-The ones Ive seen are a kind of Hienz 57-in terms of thier color-and physical characteristics-some look like Hereford Shorthorn Xs with a little more sheath-some look like flat out ear cattle-But everyone Ive met that had them-or knew someone who did: said they are really good cattle-which sorta throws the purity thing out the window dependent upon cosmetics in some cases. O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

The hardest pill I've had I swallow is realizing crossbreed bulls are not the answer. In fact the are a detrement to the beef industry IMO. I've bred a awesome cross bred bull. He is a outlier. If his progeny produce consistently as he does, I'll eat my hat. Crossbreed are terminal and nothing more. It's not the way. I've had a very difficult time accepting this. But in the end it's the reality.

 

[nate53]

Crossbred's are not the whole answer but neither are purebred's (each have there place).  Depending on what one's goals are.  Crossbred bulls can be just as consistent as purebreds but most aren't (it won't happen in one generation but many)..  With that being said how many purebred shorthorn, angus, etc.  bulls have consistencey (desireable consistencey)?  Being consistently inconsistent doesn't count.  A consistent bull needs a similiarly consistent cow herd to work.

What is the purpose of stablizing a line of crossbred's, won't this in affect create a purebred line?  Unless both breeds compliment each other and yet are similiar enough to each other to create consistencey. 

So Brock would you consider Beefmaster's a terminal breed and nothing more?  Sure some of them are just terminal but the breed in general is much more than just terminal.

Breed like to like = like offspring, maybe not the first generation but eventually.  This should be the same for purebreds and crossbred's alike.

Purity seems to be overrated in cattle, it seems to me you create your own purity by what you choose to put in your own herd.  I mean really why worry about the pedigree from a 100 years ago ( it's irrelevant).  Worry about the past several generations pedigree and the future ones.

 

[RyanChandler]

True stabilized beefmasters- 1/2 brahma 1/4 SH 1/4 Hereford- are highly consistent in type.  The newer infusion of black bulls is a disaster for the breed IMO. 

After 'many generations' of same % breeding - you no longer have crossbreds but stabilized composites- Gert, beefmasters, Brangus, etc.  The only way these stabilized composites have the consistency/prepotency they do is bc they're all heavily line/inbred. 

" A consistent bull needs a similiarly consistent cow herd to work."

This is terribly untrue. 

 

[simba]

I have a dog at my house. Shes half border collie and half Heeler. Couldnt get any papers on her, So I just said screw it and registered her CHI  <beer>

That's hilarious!!

 

[nate53]

" A consistent bull needs a similiarly consistent cow herd to work."

This is terribly untrue.

Not!
I guess I should have put, to work best for consistencey.
Unless like to unlike is going to be more consistent than like to like (the bull is at most half the equation right)

 

[RyanChandler]

Like to like sacrifices too much hybrid vigor when you can get a highly consistent (enough) product using a tightly wound bull.  The commercial man doesnt need peas in a pod, he just can't afford extreme outliers.

Calves sired by highly prepotent bulls express much more than 50% of their sires characteristics despite only accounting for 50% of their genotype. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Im not sure in the real world of the small commercial operation if they even know what the carrle are. Alot of people get females at the sale barn-and bulls too-and dont care how they are papered:because most of them arent-and theyve raised cattle like this for ever. And some of them have some really good cattle.So the whole prity issue-is really out the window in most cow herds.Its mostly about color O0

 

[RyanChandler]

I agree Mark. Way more mongrel commercial herds than uniform ones. That being said, the smart cattleman seeks a bull that can somewhat unify his calf crop. This is the primary reason Char bulls are so popular. That ol diluter stamps em pretty hard.  The only way to attain that type of gene dominance out of a non diluter breed would be to use a heavily line/inbred bull.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Crossbred's are not the whole answer but neither are purebred's (each have there place).  Depending on what one's goals are.  Crossbred bulls can be just as consistent as purebreds but most aren't (it won't happen in one generation but many)..  With that being said how many purebred shorthorn, angus, etc.  bulls have consistencey (desireable consistencey)?  Being consistently inconsistent doesn't count.  A consistent bull needs a similiarly consistent cow herd to work.

What is the purpose of stablizing a line of crossbred's, won't this in affect create a purebred line?  Unless both breeds compliment each other and yet are similiar enough to each other to create consistencey. 

So Brock would you consider Beefmaster's a terminal breed and nothing more?  Sure some of them are just terminal but the breed in general is much more than just terminal.

Breed like to like = like offspring, maybe not the first generation but eventually.  This should be the same for purebreds and crossbred's alike.

Purity seems to be overrated in cattle, it seems to me you create your own purity by what you choose to put in your own herd.  I mean really why worry about the pedigree from a 100 years ago ( it's irrelevant).  Worry about the past several generations pedigree and the future ones.

I would consider beefmasters a niche breed. If its not hot they are non existent. I don't know enough about beefmasters to honestly say. Purity doesn't need a registration paper. It takes a honest breeder. Until someone shows me something better then then the tru-line philosophy as described by Larry Leonhardt, I'm sticking with that.

 

[bart]

There are alot of beefmaster bulls being used in our area. Yes it's hot humid here! Cattle have to fight the elements.
I am no cattle expert like XBar but I ship quite a few pot-loads north everyyear.  The beefmaster bulls have worked well for us. Call them mongrel if you want?  Those cattle take pretty good care of my family.  Beefmaster steers also do very well in the ring as compared to other American breeds. I don't work for the beefmaster breeders either. When the packers pull the hide off everything changes. And I don't take that hit on prices for hide color even if they have a little ear on them.

 

[RyanChandler]

You must have misunderstood. Im a huge proponent of beefmaster cattle. They were originally bred in Colorado- so only a Deep South breed they're not.  The first reg cows I owned were beefmasters and I ran beefmaster and Gert bulls both over my granddads grade angus cows after be passed.  That is why I speak to the prepotency of stabilized composites- because I've personally had excellent results with them.  The problem most have is that they don't have the foundation to distinguish between crossbreds, composites, and stabilized composites; the latter of which should only hold any relevance in terms of sire selection.

 

[Duncraggan]

Mildly off topic, but have you seen those ShorthornXGert and Gert cows on page 146 of Shorthorn Country?  That cow second from left is amazing.

XBAR, I've mentioned it before but it makes me itch to put a Gert on my Shorthorns after seeing that ad!

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Xbar told me awhile back how good gerts were. That ad sure got my attention. I agree with you. The one cow is a beast

 

[RyanChandler]

That's a hell of a cow.  Phenotypically- she works in ALL environments. Their new bull was also the high seller at Jungles' Durhams for Denver sale at $18.5.   

Here's a Gert bull I've had saved on my phone for awhile. Think he's an Australian bull but I have a couple thousand cattle pics saved on my phone, so I can't remember them all.

 

[Okotoks]

I like some on this Australian webite!

http://www.manchee.com.au/ww-sires.html

They have Shorthorns as well

http://www.manchee.com.au/yy-sires.html