A Sire Line

[trevorgreycattleco]

Obviousky I meant to say bulls mr reed. I guess it's bed time.

 

[r.n.reed]

Very nice Gary. It's as if the grand son is a crossbred. I think it's working! I am thinking about trying this with Renegade progeny.

Thanks JTM.Not sure what you mean by the crossbred reference on the 2 year old unless you are referring to the 2 crosses of President 26a who was an outcross to our cowherd.We call him Double Brute as he has a minimum of 2 doses of every good bull we have used since we started with the first bull in 1973.His pedigree is very similar to the heifers he bred last summer.

 

[r.n.reed]

So if you line breed that tight, and find a recessive defect that is now In Your whole herd.......... 

You do what  you would do with any type of inferiority.You cull and test when applicable.

 

[r.n.reed]

Obviousky I meant to say bulls mr reed. I guess it's bed time.

Usually every one is better off if I throw in the towel long before you made your posts.

 

[Dale]

What's the name or registration number of the two-year-old?  Is the one in the middle, Frontline?  The old bull sure is easy to look at.

 

[nate53]

Are you sure those aren't clones Gary!

 

[r.n.reed]

What's the name or registration number of the two-year-old?  Is the one in the middle, Frontline?  The old bull sure is easy to look at.

Dale we still need to continue work on that conversation we started 3 months ago.The middle bull is Frontline.The 2 year olds reg.# is x4191362

 

[r.n.reed]

Are you sure those aren't clones Gary!

That is a compliment of the highest order Nate. You actually thought the 2 year old could turn out better than his sire when I posted his yearling picture earlier this year.

 

[RedBulls]

Gary, I took a few pictures of sire/daughter matings today. Of course it's early to tell exactly how they'll mature, but so far I'm mostly pleased with the results.

This is the two year old dam "203Z"

This is her heifer calf "403B" DOB 1/22/14, Same sire as dam's. Actual BW 80 lbs., unassisted, up and nursing within 20 minutes

This is a second calf dam "187Y" with her heifer calf "426B" from the same sire. 426B DOB 2/10/14, actual BW 78 lbs, unassisted/unobserved.

Here is one that may not have worked like I'd hoped. I really like the phenotype of this "185Y", a 3 year old (second calf) heifer, but not too sure about the calf. Her 2013 calf didn't impress me much though either. Pretty is as pretty does.

Here is her 2014 heifer by her sire. She is "412B", DOB 1/31/14, Actual BW 77 lbs. unassisted/unobserved on a very cold night.

This last one is less line bred as this "171Y" 3 year old was bred to her paternal 1/2 brother last spring. Her bull calf is "401B", DOB 1/22/14, Actual BW 85 lbs. Unassisted birth, helped calf nurse first time. Heifer was not restrained while doing so.

People tend to shy away from "close-breeding". Like you say, it can expose genetic flaws. But, like you, I believe it's the best way to solidify your genetic base to bring consistency of your preferred phenotype.

 

[JTM]

Very nice Gary. It's as if the grand son is a crossbred. I think it's working! I am thinking about trying this with Renegade progeny.

Thanks JTM.Not sure what you mean by the crossbred reference on the 2 year old unless you are referring to the 2 crosses of President 26a who was an outcross to our cowherd.We call him Double Brute as he has a minimum of 2 doses of every good bull we have used since we started with the first bull in 1973.His pedigree is very similar to the heifers he bred last summer.

It just seems to me that the close breeding is causing a performance effect to take place. They continue to get better... Kind of like the hybrid vigor you would get from crossbreeding.

 

[Okotoks]

Took some pictures this morning of our 3 herd bulls.They are coming 6,4,2,Sire,son and grandson.Anyone else doing this?I would be interested in hearing about your program.Warning these cattle are not in show condition.

Those bulls look very impressive Gary! We have used one sire line in our program for the last 23 years. We do not use it exclusively though. Starting with Diamond Captain Mark 27C, a son of Bodmin Alberta Mark 71A we have used his sons, grandsons, great grandsons etc. This year we should have some ET calves by 27C. We already have a calf by his grandson Northern Legend 3N (a roan full sister to ACC General 4U) a bull calf by ACC General 4U and a heifer calf by Diamond Xplosion 23X a great grandson of Northern Legend 3N. Later we will also be getting calves by Diamond Zulu 3Z, a son of ACC General 4U (now at Oakviews) Most of the cows in the herd carry a cross or 2 of 27C.

 

[Duncraggan]

Great looking young cows, especially like the udders/teats on them.

 

[aj]

When I was in high school....dad had 3 maxi brute sons that he bought from pa do.

 

[r.n.reed]

Thanks Ralph for posting those pictures the heifers look very functional and it will be very worthwhile to intensify those genetics.I agree with Duncraggen on those udders and also your attention to detail on the calving reports.
Thanks for clarifying JTM on your thoughts I am anxious to see how this next generation performs with an even higher degree of intensity.
Dan,27c has always been a favorite of mine.Do you have a certain percentage of him you want in a pedigree or is it more of when a superior individual presents himself?
AJ, You should outdo your Dad and buy 4 Maxi Brute grandsons at Lovings sale March 1st. ;D

 

[aj]

I'm looking em over.

 

[RyanChandler]

Thanks Ralph for posting those pictures the heifers look very functional and it will be very worthwhile to intensify those genetics.I agree with Duncraggen on those udders and also your attention to detail on the calving reports.
Thanks for clarifying JTM on your thoughts I am anxious to see how this next generation performs with an even higher degree of intensity.
Dan,27c has always been a favorite of mine.Do you have a certain percentage of him you want in a pedigree or is it more of when a superior individual presents himself?
AJ, You should outdo your Dad and buy 4 Maxi Brute grandsons at Lovings sale March 1st. ;D

At what point do you think outcross potential is maximized- in terms of prepotency and the heterosis phenomenon?  I would think you would likely start experiencing regression within your own herd before your outcross potential would start to diminish in other herds. As far as reaching this point, is regression within your own herd an indicator of nearing this tipping point or?  What are your thoughts?

 

[r.n.reed]

Good question XBAR,I think the biggest problem in finding out is that once a herd reaches that regression point there are few breeders willing to take it farther and few buyers willing to purchase those animals.So it is hard to say which decides the next mating in a program maximum outcross potential or regression. I suppose it comes down to the big O word again,optimize.
To me it is amazing how much linebreeding or even inbreeding takes place without a breeder even realizing it.I wonder how many bulls were tossed as poor producers when used in a certain herd when actually it was a regression situation because the breeder failed to look back more than 3 generations on a pedigree or how many bulls were called a wonder bull for being a prepotent sire with a diverse pedigree for the same reason.I doubt that Harvey Fulton was wanting to stack King Collynie jr. when he planned the mating that produced Kenmar President 26a but he is in that pedigree many many times from top to bottom.It makes sense though when you think about it that that kind of thing could happen quite easy when you are focused on producing a certain type of animal.

 

[RyanChandler]

Many customers know what they want; few know how to get it.  So many - like those that use crossbred bulls-  are blinded by expressed heterosis in the flesh. The see expressed heterosis and ignorantly infer genetic superiority.  Likewise, many people look at a heavily linebred bull and see not only the absence of expressed heterosis but also the visible regression resulting from inbreeding.  These individuals ignorantly infer the inferiority of the individuals genetics.  They do not realize, that the 'superiority' - the hybrid vigor- they see expressed (essentially used up) in the crossbred is actually retained by the straightbred (even compounded exponentially by the linebred) bull to be injected into future generations and expressed when, and only when, outcrossed.

I am a strong proponent of the value and importance of linebreeding to attain predictable results.  I don't know a specific IBC% that is too high but my thinking is that your outcross potential is maximized when the prepotency phenomenon (when crossed) is no longer 'strong' enough to offset the reduction in type.    How to determine what quantity of the outcome is a result of heterosis and what quantity is a result of superior genotype.....? That's where my understanding starts getting fuzzy... comparing expected variations and so on...

 

[RyanChandler]

hmmmm food for though... taken from a poster on Keeney's Corner:

"It has been gone over several times here, my take or understanding, the IBC is hypothetical measurement assuming the progeny is exactly 25 percent of all his grandparents which may or may not be so. It would be possible, but unlikely, for the said progeny to carry virtually no genetic information from a grandparent. Therefore your 40 percent IBC calf may only be 10 percent inbred in reality, or much more inbred, but doubtful if carrying superior phenotype, due to the correlation of heterozygosity creating the hybrid vigor effect, thus the reciprocal would also be true"

I'd like to add that I feel hypothetical measurements are the culprit of the inconsistencies you experience in crossbred bulls.  A bull could technically be 3/4 shorthorn 1/4 angus but the majority of genetic information he carries or expresses could come from the minority makeup percentage. 

And as far as transmission: the genetic info a crossbred bull passes to his offspring (especially when taking the vast background of the crossbred cows you breed him to into consideration)- while the hypothetical measurements might suggest one thing, the 'actual' measurements of the genetics information carried/expressed can and WILL be all over the place.

 

[knabe]

i may not have the below completely correct, but anyway.

mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f mmmmmmmmmmmmm
f f f f f f f f f f f f  mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f mmmmmmmmmmmmm
f f f f f f f f f f f f  mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


the above represents two chromosomes  from two half sib parents where the f and m equal what was received from the previous parents, but one, the female is from a half sib mating, so the "f" is the "same", while the "m" is from a different sire, ie in this case one is attempting to concentrate the female. of course the "benefit" of the female may no be so beneficial in a homozygous state, but her offspring might be in the first generation.  again, this is a good illustration that there are a lot of things going on with line breeding and why it's much easier to have "crossbred" cattle within a breed to take out this potential variability.


when the cross occurs, one could end up with


mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f
f f f f f f f f f f f f  f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


in this hypothetical, the IBC is potentially much higher than if there were more crossover events.  multiply this effect over multiple chromosomes and multiple generations, and it's clear concurrent observations must be taken into effect, ie defects, and what one wants or doesn't want.  it's also clear that one can get rid of stuff from an otherwise good animal, but keep the rest with rigorous culling.  add in the possibility of methylation which may happen on one half of the chromosome but not the other is now very different than either one of the parents which may also account for variability.  "superior" animals may in addition to depression or hybrid vigor may be the result of other regulatory pathways. to me, at this stage in genomics, it's not clear to me when we will figure this out, but it is clear to me that line breeding is ok as long as one understands that the first few generations will potentially be extremely variable, but that doesn't necessarily mean to get rid of the outliers, but to be more focused on what one wants in specific traits found lacking or to be gotten rid of.


to me, it's why buster should be line bred.  hopefully someone will do it.