All AI Herd - NO BULL :)

[DL]

If you look at the stats from USDA the number of beef herds that do AI is small (compared to the total # of herds) and the number of all AI herds is infinitesimal so....
If you had an all AI herd (no bull, nada, zero, zip)
1) how many times would your AI a cow before she went to Burgerville
2) what kind of criteria would you use to breed her more than once
3) how would you decide that you needed to buy the bull
4) what would you see as the advantages/disadvantages of an all AI herd....

 

[shorthorns r us]

isn't one of the really big and "important" angus herds AI only?

 

[DL]

isn't one of the really big and "important" angus herds AI only?

I do believe that that is true - 2000 head I think, but you didn't answer the questions

 

[shorthorns r us]

i have a bull because it is logistically impossible to go beyond one ai breeding.  my goal is bull free.  if i can get mobile enough, this hip injury might be a blessing in disguise toward achieving my goal.  i would really like to bring up about 50 to 100 of the families commercial cows to AI breed without a bull.  that would be ideal.  if i am ever able to work with the cattle full-time i think i could AI breed 100 for spring calving and 250 - 300 for fall calving.  with two calving seasons some could be allowed to rollover before they had to go.  if your pastures are geographically dispersed, a bulls would cut down on your monthly fuel bill.

isn't one of the really big and "important" angus herds AI only?

I do believe that that is true - 2000 head I think, but you didn't answer the questions

 

[Cowboy]

We only have a dozen or so cows, it is a SMALL herd by deffinition. Here, all the cows and hfrs are bred total A-I, no bull period.

This year I must admit I actaully DID have one repeat for myself, a coming second calf hfr who just would not stop being in heat. We never give ovulation drugs, so even though I was diligent, it was a timing issue I fear. She is now carrying an embryo, we will see!

I think that after 3 services, the time may have come for a cow to leave here atleast. Of course, I also take into account any issues that may be causing the female not to breed -- even  (ARGH !!) operator error!! jeez !! I give them all a fighting chance, very rarely do we ever have a serious issue.

Criteria for only breeding A-I !

First, the use of the very best genetics the country has to offer for a  fraction of the cost of a single average breeding bull. No brainer there.

Secondly, ""  NO "" disease issues ie - Trich, BVD, Vibrio, etc etc. While only 2 of these can be caused by reproduction (Trich and Vibrio) it will certainly at least lessen the potential of bringing in something from the OUTSIDE.

Third, the cost and worry of destruction due to fighting over fences and in corrals. Also , on the same token, worry for self safety issues. Any family with a wife and kids, needs to decide is it really worth the worrry??

Fourth, of course is the housing, feed cost, vet cost, injury and salvage issues. In case any one is curious, the average american cow being serviced by a bull will deliver a calf costing an additional 37.23 cents over feed costs and health for the cow, due to amortization of the average bull cost per year. That translates into about 1.5 units of good quality semen per cow they A-I.  I know I can most certainly get my cows bred every year with 1.5 units of 20-25 dollar semen.

WHY fight the bull in cases such as this.

LARGE herds -- well that is most likely another story for most people. As SRU states, logistics can be the most telling story of all. No one can be in 10 places at once, with bull power out there, that would be one less worry!

Here at least, the plusses for A-i far out weigh the plusses for a bull -- forgive the spelling!! hehehe

Have a good day every one -- getting hoter by the day out west!

Terry

 

[red]

We AI only here but have just 10 cows. The farm runs 2 bulls.
Answering questions:
1. I'd AI a cow 4 times before sending her off. But I'd probably have someone check her first to make sure nothing wrong.
2. I'd look at her bloodlines, what she's done before & the circumstances behind her not catching. IE, maybe it's our fault not catching her the right time or breeding too early.
3. I'd only buy a bull if we have to stop AI'ing due to no help or health reasons.
4. The advantages of an AI herd is that I can pick & choose what I want to breed my cows to. Less chance of inbreeding, more variety of calves. Danger factor!!! Not having to worry about a bull during off season.

Red

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

If you look at the stats from USDA the number of beef herds that do AI is small (compared to the total # of herds) and the number of all AI herds is infinitesimal so....
If you had an all AI herd (no bull, nada, zero, zip)
1) how many times would your AI a cow before she went to Burgerville
2) what kind of criteria would you use to breed her more than once
3) how would you decide that you needed to buy the bull
4) what would you see as the advantages/disadvantages of an all AI herd....

If I were to go to an all AI herd.....
  1) AI 3 times unless there was a problem with AI Tech (me)
  2) Past production record, breeding record, Value of her genetics in the herd.
  3) Conception rate, logistics and facility
  4) Advantages - AI sired calves are more readily marketable, new genetic opportunities.
      disadvantages - Finding bulls that work in my program and produce better calves than the herd bulls.

 

[chambero]

This fall we will be AI's about 50 mature cows, 30 1st calf heifers (breeding for second calf), and about 60 virgin heifers.  The virgin heifers will be synchronized and time bred.  The rest of them will be synchronized and then heat detected.  It takes a pretty good crew for us to AI that many efficiently.  Its the upper end of what we can handle.

We don't AI all of our cows.  Other than "looks", I don't try to AI cow if she hasn't taken on one breeding two years in a row.  I've no experience with trying more than once per year.

The biggest trouble with bulls is having a place to keep them out of trouble when not with the cows.  We do, but every once in a while we still have a traveler.  A small herd with only one pasture would warrant a hard look at AI only.

 

[shorthorns r us]

don't let cowboy fool ya. he has plenty of bull. if i can't squish him into a book, maybe i could bag his bull and sell it.  atleast that way i could have a little bit of the repro stuff he has forgotten that i will never know.

 

[showcattlegal]

I would love to just do AI, but when you have to hire someone from far away to do it, you have to have good clean up bull.

 

[farmboy]

Well, if I knew how to AI and if we even had a head gate, we wouldnt need a bull  :-\

 

[itk]

The only time we ai is for our embryo program, mostly because my dad doesn't trust his heat detection skills and if they don't stick I hate to have cattle get behind. To quote my Belle Point catalog dose ai mean better I say no way. I understand it might be more economical in some cases but we have always thought it was a better investment to go out and buy good herd sires. We have had a Louisville champion (was also reserve bull at Denver) as a herd sire and the two bulls we had before our current sire were both 2 time All-Americans. We have never sold a ton of semen but we always sell enough to make the extra we spend on the bulls reasonable. I would rather spend $10,000 on a bull and sell $8,000 in semen then buy a $2,000 dollar bull. Especially in the shorthorn breed there are alot of bulls that are promotable that sell for cheap. The other reason I can't get excited about ai is that every bull is someones herdsire. Sonny was a herd bull for Schrags, Red Rider was a herd bull for Deans and on and on.

 

[DL]

ITK -  you said

The other reason I can't get excited about ai is that every bull is someones herdsire. Sonny was a herd bull for Schrags, Red Rider was a herd bull for Deans and on and on.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

[showcattlegal]

It's not a bad thing my Bull sired calves have out showed my A.I calves. I have to sell him this year though  :-\.

 

[itk]

ITK -  you said

The other reason I can't get excited about ai is that every bull is someones herdsire. Sonny was a herd bull for Schrags, Red Rider was a herd bull for Deans and on and on.

Why is that a bad thing?

Here is the quote from my 2007 Belle Point catalog that also summarizes my thoughts on ai.

At a Drake Farms bull sale, this remark was made from the auction block
about an excellent sale animal sired by a superior Drake-bred herd sire:
“He’s a good one—even though he’s not sired by an AI bull.” It prompted
this question to a noted and widely respected animal scientist seated
next to me: “Does AI-sired mean they’re better?” He replied, “Occasionally.”
‘Nuf said? We think so!

I never said it was bad I just think that sometimes to much emphasis is placed on ai sired cattle. I don't think that ai automatically means a superior product, like some people do. I agree that some sires are indeed classic and for genetic improvement should be utilized in ai programs. I think that sometimes ai sires get put on a pedestal as superior animals when they really might not be. Maybe we put to much emphasis on our bulls but we haven't had one yet that I don't think can do as good as job as 99% percent of the bulls out there. In 2004 both of our herd bulls stood second in their class at Louisville, why shouldn't I think they should sire outstanding calves that could compete with any promoted bull. At the end of the day a bulls job is to breed cows no matter where the pasture is located.

 

[Ag Man]

We had a man that here in Louisburg KS named Andy Devine and had a farm named "Ain't No Bull Ranch".  He worked for ABS since the 1940's...He was a pioneer in the AI business and trained 1000's of AI technicians.  I used to have him talk to my ag classes and he had a ton of stories...a real character.  He passed away a couple of years back. He firmly believed a bull wasn't needed.

Question: The big AI only Angus ranch...why buy a bull from a ranch who says you shouldn't be using a bull...actions speak louder than words.

 

[pigguy]

4) what would you see as the advantages/disadvantages of an all AI herd....

one big plus with AIing

You can bring new genetics to your  herd. you can get genetics that you normally couldnt afford.

you can breed them to a sweet bull that has what you want for about 50$

 

[DL]

Question: The big AI only Angus ranch...why buy a bull from a ranch who says you shouldn't be using a bull...actions speak louder than words.

I am sure somebody knows more about this ranch than I do but these guys are cutting edge, innovative, and have set the bar in many instances - and since more than 95% of beef herds don't AI somebody needs the bulls!

 

[JbarL]

Question: The big AI only Angus ranch...why buy a bull from a ranch who says you shouldn't be using a bull...actions speak louder than words.

I am sure somebody knows more about this ranch than I do but these guys are cutting edge, innovative, and have set the bar in many instances - and since more than 95% of beef herds don't AI somebody needs the bulls!

my small herd was purchased of ai and embryo stock......i breed them the old fashion with a bull of my choice in may with my twin heifers and seregot mother of my now 9 mo. old bulll calf.........and then next year they areall his......that" was "the plan.......one advantage i've seen is the ability my bull being  ableto breed his "mother" next year.....another advantage seems to be the constant health and vigor that my breeders herd seems to produce......my choice " was" to breed bull only........however my breeder just shared with me an 80%
embyro success he just completed and is quite excited aobut the results and his ai program as well ........soooooo....as stated   ....the ai tech, and so many other variables of the " human" nature seems to be the only down side of the process excluding the costs.for me....but a ranch without a bull.......just dont seem natural to me..  ...i'll be visiting him during the ohio state fair in a week or so....and i guess my input would be that even though i wasnt interested in propogating my herd in this manner at first ....it sure seems to be my choice of stock to purchase.....again health vigor..ect....the "human factor" /lack of knnowledge and the costs of eleminating these  problems for me makes it more of a gamble than a gain at this time, .....jbarl