MY opinion (may not mean much!!)
Have only seen 1 cowboy troy calf (the bull is young - 05') and was not impressed, and it was out of a good cow.
Don't know alot of his pedigree. But I guess time will tell.
Really like Outlook. Out of legend (if my memory serves me well). Have seen some really nice calves out of him. But, use him on bigger females with some stretch. He will NOT add size. He will add dimension, and thickness. If used on smaller females, his calves can be a bit "toad-y", Also helps if the female is clean up front. With Equator in his background on his dam side, his calves also perform well. Regardless of his numbers, I fear a few large calves out of him (equator was not a calving ease bull).
So depending on your female, I would use Outlook.
Again just my opinion......hope it helps in your search!
Robert Trausch purchased a group of Angus cows (I can't remember the name of the breeder) we went through these calves they were flat out awesome. Cowboy Troy was in this group, I would have taken any of the females running with him. From what I remember they were on the smaller frame size in the Angus deal, but really stout, had some hair and bone for an Angus, I wouldn't have a problem using him.
A bull we have tried to get semen on that I think looks like he would work to produce show cattle is Striker, we already had our purebreds stuck before he was producing so I don't know if he is on the market yet, but he looked promising, SEK had the contract on him.
JILL, I SAW STRIKER IN THE AJ A COUPKE MONTHS AGO AND I THINK PVF IS GOT SEMEN ON HIM.HE IS DEFINETLY A CLUBBY TYPE BULL.DEVILS ADVOCATE ON THIS,WHY PROVE THE BULL FOR THE OWNER,THERE ARE PLENTY OF PROVEN ANGUS SIRES THAT ALOT OF DATA IS AVAILABLE ON,THAT MAKE GOOD SHOW CALVES.YOU WILL SAY THE DATA IS ONLY AS HONEST AS THE GUY TURNING IT IN AND YES YOUR RIGHT.HOT ROD IS A EXAMPLE,WHEN I FIRST USED HIM ,HE WAS UNDER A 3 ON BW AND NOW THE MORE PROGENY DATA COMING IN ,HE IS LIKE A 3.4.SO I THINK THE MORE YOU USE A BULL THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT.RAMBLING ON AGAIN RUSTY
I'm not really an Angus breeder, you know the noassitis and little bone really isn't my thing , we have 4 registered Angus that we use as recips, they make great mothers. We purchased an embryo mating a few years ago out of Broken Lance Ranch dispersal and she has really turned out to be a very nice cow. I liked Striker because he appears to be much cleaner fronted than most of the angus bulls out there, we are more of a clubby, show based operation.
I may get shot on this one, but I don't look at numbers when making breeding decision, that too seems to be an Angus thing , our herd is comprised of all registered cattle that all come with numbers and I wouldn't give a plug nickel for any of that data, the ones that are great on paper have no milk and crappy calves, the ones that should be crappy have plenty of milk and great gains, so I stopped looking at the papers years ago. We were told when we 1st got into this business that to compete in the showring your calves have to be aged by at least a month if not more, that kind of turned me off on the EPD thing from the get go.
I do appreciate the input though, we have made our share of the "poor breeding decisions" so I do know where you are coming from on the untried bull.
Jill, first off, I realize (or at least hope) that the angus no butt-itis and little bone comment was tongue in cheek. Just as my "I am not a maine fan due to the fact, I don't like to own calf pullers, nor do I want to support Dr.Beever on a yearling bases" comment. So with that I have a question.
I agree that numbers, EPD'S are only PART of the equation when selecting cattle. As I have said earlier, I think you can have eye appealing cattle that have TRUE numbers, but it takes a lot of work.
You stated that when you started showing you were told you have to under age your cattle by a month to be competitive, and that is why you did not like EPD's. Why would that not turn you off of SHOWING? Age has little to do with EPD's (maybe a wee-bit on weaning weight, but not much) but has lots to do with show ring placings. Also, what did you tell those folks that told you to under age your cattle?
See, you didn't get shot...but you might have a tracking collar on ya!!!! ;D
It's not that I don't like EPD's it is that I have no faith in them, and would not base my breeding decisions on a set of phoney numbers that someone put down on paper. I have done very well in the last 15 years not looking at the numbers and don't plan to change that. Here are the reasons I feel the way I do.
1. BW-I place no value on BW epd whatsoever, I have yet to see anyone promoting a bull that had a 100 pound birthweight, but oddly enough every calf you have out of him is a 100 pound (or more) calf. I place way more value on the shape of the calves he throws, I have pulled 60 pound calves and had cows spit out 130 pound calves and not even notice it JMO.
2. WW-YW- MM-If you can change the age of a calf by over a month and not have it affect your weight numbers something is wrong. Cattle gaining around 3 pounds per day will put on almost 100 pounds in a typical month, how can you say that only affects placings and not your numbers?
I didn't tell those folks anything, we weren't raising cattle at that time, we got in this showing them and started collecting them after they were done showing. I love that showing end of the business, why would that turn me off of showing, there are cheaters in every walk of life it doesn't mean you quit. At that point we were naive enough to think that everyone in this business was honest, when they sold me a calf with a certain date I trusted them.
here are the nasty facts,show people can careless about epds,cheating on birthdates have gone on forever.angus has the only real epds,they have a data base to support that and i for one wants predictablity.if i am gettin a 130# freak i kinda want to know my chances.and finally to get every body mad, how can you have truthful epds when your letting% cattle register.your certainly not getting purebred data.run your program like you want,i will continue to use epds and you can continue being surprised!.rusty swks
hey, there are a few of us that register animals on their right birthdate, weigh their calves & turn in the correct birth weights & weaning weights. We may be the few, the proud & the dumb but we do it!
I very seldom am "surprised", I don't breed from a point of stupidity, I just don't use EPDs.
I turn in my data, we use a scale at birth, weaning and yearling, though none of it will ever count toward an EPD. We are not a large operation and for any of the information to count, you have to turn it in in a contemperary group and our numbers are generally not large enough to accomodate that.
jill, i really want to argue.i have at most 10 angus calves a year that i turn in data on,i have turned in 2 before and got epd.s back.lets face it and you have stressed it,you dont like epds!i am not trying to sell them to you,i use them as they are supposed to be used,when it comes to angus.rusty
I don't turn them in on Angus because I only have 1 calf I have ever bred purebred Angus I am not an Angus breeder. The only Angus calf I have ever had I turned in data on and her Ind. numbers are all blank, that is the only reference I have to go on her #15641824 if you would like to look it up. I was actually referencing Maine-Anjou cattle, that is what I raise and that is where my reference is. I am sorry to have offended you, that was not my intention, don't have anything against Angus cattle that is just not what I raise. To have a set of numbers count in the Maine breed you have to turn in a contemperary group of I believe 8 head of calves in the same grouping, we only have 49 cows total of all breeds and about 20 of those are normally embryo's so we usually don't qualify. I tell you what, the cow in question is #+14462408, I'll send you a picture of her and you can tell me what you would suggest I breed her to, her calf out of Legend was really nice, but too sloppy necked to show.
OK - here is my take on EPD's- As long as you have individual people/breeders with personal adgendas turning in information, you will have people/breeders manipulating the data. It doesn't matter what breed you are in, it happens. I look at EPD's as a marketing tool and not much more, maybe a vague guidence system - maybe. If you could get accurate information turned in on every animal, the system would be great. But until that happens I look at it as a computer generated guess. That is why the original interim EPD's change so radically so quickly. JMO - Have at it A111!
A111 - Love a good debate. The one falicy to that is if breeder A. wants to wreck breeder B's bull - breeder A buys a truck load of semen on breeder B's bull when he is a yearling. Breeder B is excited to sell that much semen and cuts him a volume discount, just a little above cost to get his bull out and used. Breeder A registers his calves the following year, puts breeder B's bulls calves in the same contemporary group as a so so herd bull that he used for a clean up bull. Next he manufactures huge B.W.'s and pathetic W.W. for breeder B's bull. Now he turns in super low B.W.'s and monster W.W.'s for the so so herd bull. This wrecks the EPD's of breeder B's bull to the point that nobody in their right mind would use him to further prove his data. This is a sad senerio but I saw it happen to a bull that was nearly unbeatable as a calf, the manipulation of his nubers effectively killed him in the breed.
rw,we need to set a time limit on replies,your getting too much time to think up scenarios.as you can tell i shoot from the hip and usually i stick my foot in(my mouth) wow ! you really got to hate somebody to pull that off.i dont think i would buy semen from someone to ruin them.rusty p.s remember time limit!