Anyone know how long PHA results are taking now?

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Showcalves

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We're drawing blood on 2 head today and am wondering about how long the results are going to take.  Thanks.

Melinda
 

red

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It's been taking about 2-3 weeks. You will probably still have to call for the results.

Red
 

knabe

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3 weeks, had to call, make sure to get your job number, and if you register the calf, you can give the number to the association and they can put it on their papers.
 

TPX

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You know we tested bulls last early last year for th and it took us five months to get the results back and it wasnt for a lack of trying on our part lots of phone calls none returned and lots of emails none returned. I have heard of this happening to lots of people and I just wonder if its b/c we are from canada or what but I dont understand why he doesnt put more effort into it.  If he didnt have a monopoly we would go some where else but since there is no where else we are thinking of getting out of the shorthorns.
 

DL

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TPX said:
You know we tested bulls last early last year for th and it took us five months to get the results back and it wasnt for a lack of trying on our part lots of phone calls none returned and lots of emails none returned. I have heard of this happening to lots of people and I just wonder if its b/c we are from canada or what but I dont understand why he doesnt put more effort into it.  If he didnt have a monopoly we would go some where else but since there is no where else we are thinking of getting out of the shorthorns.

First off it has nothing to do with you being in Canada
Second - if you have issues with getting test results email me; PHA is now in the 2 to 3 week range and call Donna at SEK
Third - I am incredibly grateful to Dr B and Barrel Racer for running the TH and PHA tests - there are only 2 (TWO) people doing all this work and they both have full time jobs at the U; yeah it probably could be better - so could a lot of things, including better planning on the part of producers
4th - if you are thinking of getting out of Shorthorns because you can't get test results I gotta think you aren't too committed to the breed to begin with
5th - There is no monopoly here - Dr B and BR identified the genes and the genes and developed the test - anybody can do the same thing - but you know why they don't? There is NO money in it - that is pretty much the same reason why only one place runs the HYPP tests, dwarfism tests, HERDA tests, etc compared to running color, horned vs polled, or the bevy of tenderness markers these genetic defect tests require a level of accuracy that tenderness etc do not
6th BR or knabe can probably add more specifics re testing, but
 

knabe

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there may have been an issue with blood at one time.  at our lab, getting permission can take a while, but after permission is granted, it should be relatively routine following timetables of courier service.  i am not sure of the exact agreement donna has with the lab (she works at SEK) and may be doing this out of professional courtesy and an act of goodwill, but as far as i know, she is the one to call for information.  SEK pushed for testing a bunch of bulls they sell at THEIR cost and a lot of them were shorthorns.  that should give you some idea the committment people have for the shorthorn breed.  I  don't think SEK or donna gets a "cut" of the $27, but i could be wrong.  again, since this IS NOT a private company, they don't have the customer service reps that a corporation would.  that would ADD to the cost.  5 months obviously seems a long time, i don't have an answer for that.  i do question what number "lots of people" represents, 5,10 50% of breeders having significant delays?  I think this is probably the exception rather than the rule, though obviously i could be wrong without specific information.  These comments put the lab in an indefensible position, considering they probably have worked lots of hours to get larger order customer's lots done before a sale.  no process is perfect.  the test has nothing to do with the shorthorn breed per sea.  you could probably switch to the angus breed where the test for snorter dwarfism is completed, not available, and is being done in realtive secrecy.  now there's a breed to switch to.  and just to be a little snotty, all you have to do to get in their marketing program is be black, you can choose whatever breed you want.  seems like little effort being put into a quality product other than a single gene for color.

for me, i lucked out, i had a potentially carrier cow bred to a carrier bull.  i know i'm an impossibly small operator, but that would have been devastating to me to have a cow that might have needed a c-section, a dead calf, and time wasted.  i would have needed to coordinate time off from work to have things done.  with the test i was able to determine that at least the cow was free and at the worst i would have had a carrier offspring.  when red talks about hair standing on end and getting excited, you can't imagine the excstacy when my heifer came back negative.  my comments are only going to be supportive of dr. beever and his lab.  granted i have a little empathy because i work in a genomics lab, but i would suggest everyone go visit a molecular biology lab at a university near them and see first hand what it takes to do this stuff.

level of accuracy is the same for the polled, tenderness etc, since the tests are amplification based.  one lab i know personally is doing everything they can to drop costs as they keep the price the same while adding testing, so this industry is in flux and it's infancy as they respond to producers cost constraints.  it is not a mature industry. 
 

TPX

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I geuss I would rather pay more money and get my results back in decent time.  It was no trouble for  our package to get down there and the test was done in two weeks b/c that is what the stamp said but then after that I took that long to get the results back through the mail.  My question is why no one would answer the call or emails.  The reason that we look a getting out of shorthorns is cause we got in at the wrong time when alot of people were selling cattle that they were having problems with but looked like good cattle.  We had a very good breeder come look at our herd this year and said that they were the best claves that he had seen till he found out all the defects that we got thus making our animals worthless.  We just dont see the point in dumping more money into this herd and taking many years to clean it up.  By the way we do have red angus and our assoc is very good at tracking problems if you have a problem calf and report it they will pay to get tests done and dont say that the shorthorn breeders didnt sweep th and pha under the rug for many years.
 

DL

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TPX said:
I geuss I would rather pay more money and get my results back in decent time.  It was no trouble for  our package to get down there and the test was done in two weeks b/c that is what the stamp said but then after that I took that long to get the results back through the mail.  My question is why no one would answer the call or emails.  The reason that we look a getting out of shorthorns is cause we got in at the wrong time when alot of people were selling cattle that they were having problems with but looked like good cattle.  We had a very good breeder come look at our herd this year and said that they were the best claves that he had seen till he found out all the defects that we got thus making our animals worthless.  We just dont see the point in dumping more money into this herd and taking many years to clean it up.  By the way we do have red angus and our assoc is very good at tracking problems if you have a problem calf and report it they will pay to get tests done and dont say that the shorthorn breeders didnt sweep th and pha under the rug for many years.

Ouch TPX - that is kinda a bad deal - I do believe that TH was hidden for a long time by the ASA - I don't know how long PHA was hidden by breeders but the AMAA was pretty forthcoming - as was the CMAA- it is a bad deal all the way around, especially if you got stuck with carriers, sorry for your bad luck
 

knabe

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every breed, every company for that matter, has gone through the sweep under the rug marketing strategy and seen the folly of that strategy.  short term gains vs long term gains, a conundrum, unless you are a rolling dispersal.  sweep under rug, sell all, rinse repeat.  gladly, there are lots of honest people out there.  ditto for feeling bad  about getting stuck with carriers.  not something i wish on anyone, especially caught unawares.  TPX, wish you success in your future direction.
 

yuppiecowboy

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Sorry for your frustrations TPX. Cant be much of a breeder if you were told your calves were worthless due to carrier pedigrees. I know many breeders who are looking at the TH issue as a way to buy cows for under their equivilent market value.I will take carrier females all day long. It is not a problem if it is managed. My fear is that there may be a whole lot of "clean by pedigree" cattle out there that are not going to be tested that have innacurate pedigrees. Some by honest mistake, some not so much.

I am a believer in testing all, cutting the carrier males, and using clean bulls. Dirty cows do not frighten me at all.

I got results recently in 3 weeks. Beats the heck out of the whole pedigree search for Typhoid Mary we had before the tests.
 

TPX

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I think that the Th issue is looked at differently up here compared to the states.  I have yet to see a TH positive animal sell in a sale up here, so far they have all passed.  In fact alot of consignment sales are going to animals must be tested th free.  We showed a bred heifer this year that alot of poeple loved we had alot of interest in her alot of people asking where we got her and then we said that we raised her and that she was acctually passed through a sale the year before as a calf only b/c she was a th carrier.  Alot of people from other breeds couldnt understand why they were like you they looked at it as something that could be managed by using clean bulls.  There is alot of old breeders in this breed up here that panic about every thing in fact there are still a few that snub the nose as appendix animals.
 

Showcalves

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Thanks so much everyone.  We ended up drawing on 3 head.  We decided we better go ahead and do both herd bulls eventhough one should be clean we just don't want to chance it.  We also drew on a former show heifer.  All we can do now id pray for clean results and watch carefully from here on out.  We thought we bred the former show girl to a clean bull and just discovered this week he's a carrier so now we're stuck in limbo.  :-\

Melinda
 

justintime

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There are some major differnences between the US and Canada:
(1)  US breeders are still in a herd building mode, whereas in Canada, most established breeders are saturated with cows. This is partly due to the BSE situation and the border closure to the US for breeding stock.
(2) the US is far more show oriented. If the US had as few shows to exhibit at, there would not be much market for as many show quality animals. Because of the major emphasis on show heifers, more THC heifer calves will sell in the US. My experience is that it is not much difference in selling THC bred femalesbetween both countries.  You can still sell a few exceptional females that are THC but if they are just average, they are a real hard sell in either the US or Canada. I have seen many pretty decent THC bred heifers and cows sell at US sales for pretty low dollars. Breeders will consider a carrier female if she has a great production record, but if they have nothing special to offer, they are hard to sell wherever they are.
( 3) There are many more Junior events in the US and therefore the competition gets pretty incredible. Those who want their kids to be in the winner's circle, will overlook the fact that a heifer is a carrier, as the show career is much more important that the breeding career.
(4) In the US, more breeders breed show animals. In Canada, more breeders show breeding animals. This is mainly due to the fact that the main shows are only the Majors held in the fall. In W. Canada, many of the summer shows have disappeared. This is due to many reasons but mainly due to travel costs and the shortage of farm labour. Most farms are getting larger and larger in size and most people are limited in what they can do.

 
 

DL

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justintime said:
There are some major differnences between the US and Canada:
(1)  US breeders are still in a herd building mode, whereas in Canada, most established breeders are saturated with cows. This is partly due to the BSE situation and the border closure to the US for breeding stock.
(2) the US is far more show oriented. If the US had as few shows to exhibit at, there would not be much market for as many show quality animals. Because of the major emphasis on show heifers, more THC heifer calves will sell in the US. My experience is that it is not much difference in selling THC bred femalesbetween both countries.  You can still sell a few exceptional females that are THC but if they are just average, they are a real hard sell in either the US or Canada. I have seen many pretty decent THC bred heifers and cows sell at US sales for pretty low dollars. Breeders will consider a carrier female if she has a great production record, but if they have nothing special to offer, they are hard to sell wherever they are.
( 3) There are many more Junior events in the US and therefore the competition gets pretty incredible. Those who want their kids to be in the winner's circle, will overlook the fact that a heifer is a carrier, as the show career is much more important that the breeding career.
(4) In the US, more breeders breed show animals. In Canada, more breeders show breeding animals. This is mainly due to the fact that the main shows are only the Majors held in the fall. In W. Canada, many of the summer shows have disappeared. This is due to many reasons but mainly due to travel costs and the shortage of farm labour. Most farms are getting larger and larger in size and most people are limited in what they can do.

 


Showcalves - have my fingers crossed for you!

Good points JIT, and of course there is the issue of getting samples across the border that we in the US do not have to deal with. THC females can also be used as recipients - IMHO better to use carriers from your own herd as recips than to buy females of unknown health for embryos.

But you forgot the big difference btwn the 2 countries - hockey is your national sport
  (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
 

TPX

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As far as shipping blood across the border we havent had a problem we have always shipped it with fedex and were able to track it and it always made it to the lab within the week cause we always test on a monday to try and get it there within the week. I would like to comment on the fact that we did ship our tests when it was a busy season for them such as bull sale season and I am sure like you guys said that some big orders got done faster b/c of volume. To me this just seems wrong I seen no place on the form to pay more to get the test done faster so if we are all paying the same amount why should one guy get his tests done faster then another guy and if thats the case then what to young breeders like us do when we onley have a few samples to send since we are just getting started. To me this seems like you are just cahse new breeders away by not helping them out the same way you do the older breeders.  I will say this though that I do know this isnt the only business that the little/young guy gets the short end of the stick.
 

knabe

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again, not being the lab that does the tests, it may be that those in the lab worked extra hours to get results done with intentions of keeping everyones tests in as similar a time frame as one can.  life is not fair.  the little guy always gets the short end of the stick.  actually this isn't true.  a small guy can respond to change quicker, isn't so encumbered by sacred cows, isn't held back as much by the culture of a bigger organization, probably can get themselves clean of TH quicker than a larger breeder with more integrity, the advantages for being small are just as endless as are the disadvantages.  older breeders are saddled with their reputation of their bloodlines they used and are famous for.  new breeders are not saddled with this discrimination.  most of the time, one's situation is determined by their attitude and things they can do something about, rather than the "bigger" guy.  there is a window of opportunity to be taken advantage of.  take it by the horns, or poll, depending on those genes.  idealism is the biggest impediment to change, and only seeks to enforce homogeneity, usually to the detriment of the smaller guy.
 

DL

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TPX said:
As far as shipping blood across the border we havent had a problem we have always shipped it with fedex and were able to track it and it always made it to the lab within the week cause we always test on a monday to try and get it there within the week. I would like to comment on the fact that we did ship our tests when it was a busy season for them such as bull sale season and I am sure like you guys said that some big orders got done faster b/c of volume. To me this just seems wrong I seen no place on the form to pay more to get the test done faster so if we are all paying the same amount why should one guy get his tests done faster then another guy and if thats the case then what to young breeders like us do when we onley have a few samples to send since we are just getting started. To me this seems like you are just cahse new breeders away by not helping them out the same way you do the older breeders.  I will say this though that I do know this isnt the only business that the little/young guy gets the short end of the stick.

Well I don't know who the "you" you are talking about - but you made a big assumption here stating that the big guys get their tests done before anyone else - this was the same assumption that an Iowa lawyer made last year - the samples are run as they come in - if there are 1000 in front of you there are 1000 in front of you - they could be from one person or 1000 different people.

Seems to me you have an ax to grind with someone - I am not a big guy and I have gotten great service from Dr B, from U of Wisconsin, from the MDA lab, UCLA, from wherever I send my samples or my clients samples -

Poor planning on your part (generic you) does not consititute an emergency on my (generic me) part - I just sent in samples for the Ohio Beef Expo in March - how much preplanning did you do?
 

TPX

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I dont know how many cattle you got but we dont have time to be bleeding calves as soon as they hit the ground. We tested our bulls in January and it took 5 months to get the results back and it wasnt that the test wasnt done it was that the paper sat on someones desk and didnt get mailed for who knows how long.  I didnt bring up the thing about the big breeders getting played favourite that was someone else all that I was saying is if that is the reason that is not a good thing for the breed.
 

knabe

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TPX, i have 2 cows, 3 heifers, and 2 steers.  i don't have time to be bleeding calves as soon as they hit the ground either.  i commute 150 miles a day, leave at 4:45 am, get back at 6-7pm at night. calving for me is extremely stressful, as is breeding season.  i had to teach my wife who knows nothing about heat detection other than being a woman, this was extremely stressful, and a bit too much reality at times.

i'm sorry this has turned into a little bit of hard feelings.  i haven't received my paperwork yet either.  i did however not have any trouble contacting donna at SEK genetics, getting a job number, a result, which i could then forward to the maine association so that the results would show up on paperwork.  i didn't bleed my cows or calf of interest till they she was a few months old so i could combine a barn call with other services.  I am sorry the this has not turned out to be so simple equally for everyone. 

my wife went to the hospital a couple of months ago to the emergency room.  her visit got classified as an office visit and we were not notified or reimbursed.  it took months to get this reclassified, a case number and reimbursement.  emergency office biling is at a minimum of five fold a regular doctor visit.  there were other factors to ridiculous to go into detail.

i am just saying that the lab is trying their dead level best to do this, at a great service to the cattle industry.  they did this out of curiosity, need, scope of the project, their good will.  mistakes will be made.  this site and several others have gone to great lengths to try and inform people not only about the disease which they have received great criticism for, but also how to obtain results.  is there a situation in the world anywhere that is perfect?  i have nothing but praise for dr. beever's lab.

again i am sorry for your individual circumstance and hope if you use the lab again and it works out, that your feelings and praise will be equally positive.

and to change the subject a little bit, if you do keep your shorthorns, what is your strategy?  do you like what you have, like what is out there to get out from under TH?  let us know what you breed to and when those hit the ground.
 

TPX

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I will agree that things happen and all I was trying to do is say what happened to us. Last year I had lots of people telling me there horror stories about how long it took and I didnt believe them b/c our first two batches of tests came back fairly quick.  As far as keeping our shorthorns I would like to cause I like the cows that we got and we do raise some really good calves but my wife on the other hand has had enough of it b/c its been nothing but a uphill fight for us when it comes to dealing with board members to try and change things and also trying to change the junior program around so that it promotes more juniors to the breed.  As two young people fresh out of juniors we realize how important the juniors are and compared to the AJSA there might as whele not be a program up here.  To prove the point we took a fairly good size string to agribition last year and meet some young people that said they were glad to see some new people in the breed they didnt think that was possible.  We find that there is a very small group in this breed up here that are willing to accept new people and that wuld include JIT and that there are alot of older people that can just be rude and try and step in the way of every thing that you try to do up here that would improve the breed and the people that are in it.  We started our red angus herd and our shorthorn herd at the same time and pretty much spent the same amount of money on both programs ( we were able to buy more horns then reds) but when we sit down and figure out the dollars and cents so far our reds have paid for them selves and we have met alot of great people who will gladly help a guy out, and well the shorthorns are still a long ways away.
 
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