Are Shows rigged or fixed?

[red]

This is based on some of the other boards & my feelings on whining & crybabies. I'm sure there have been some shows that certain people scratch each others backs but I like to think on a whole it is not done.
what is your opinion? As usual; no slandering or nastiness but I'm curious what others think. Let everyone have an opinion without bashing it.

Thanks,
Red

 

[ELBEE]

My thoughts,

There is a certain amount of "snow ball" or "bandwagon" effect in the judges circle. You can't tell me that popular judges don't know who's winning on the circuits, and who's spending the big bucks for show calves. I don't believe there is much actual pay-off per-say, but judges want to stay popular. And most of the high profile cattle are good ones, so picking them won't hurt they're reputation.

This is why guys like Scott and me aren't asked to judge. Cause we'd pick the ones we like best on matter what they're background. Show committees don't like waves, and we don't care how many we create.

Lee Bigham

 

[DL]

My thoughts,

There is a certain amount of "snow ball" or "bandwagon" effect in the judges circle. You can't tell me that popular judges don't know who's winning on the circuits, and who's spending the big bucks for show calves. I don't believe there is much actual pay-off per-say, but judges want to stay popular. And most of the high profile cattle are good ones, so picking them won't hurt they're reputation.

This is why guys like Scott and me aren't asked to judge. Cause we'd pick the ones we like best on matter what they're background. Show committees don't like waves, and we don't care how many we create.

Lee Bigham

ELBEE - chambero has almost always won the "Silver Tongue" Award and he was a high contender this go round - but today you take the cake (or the virtual trophy)! If I had a show you could judge it any day and you wouldn't have to wear a purple tube top!

When I see a big breeder in one breed (lets say for example Dexters) judge the Galloways and pick a big breeder in the Galloways on top and then the next week see the big Galloway breeder judge the Dexters and pick the big breeder from the Dexters on top it does cause me to say hmmmmmmmmm.... ;)

 

[ELBEE]

Here's another thought,

It's the last major show of the season.
Pick a homeless guy off the street, give him a $200 Stetson and a pair of khaki Wranglers.
Give him a sheet of paper listing how placings went all season, have him place accordingly (1st, most 1st's-2cnd,most 2cnd's and so on).
Give a "canned" set of reasons from any Vo-Ag instructor.

Nobody would know the difference, and probably say he's the best judge they'd ever seen.

And the show committee would be ecstatic.

 

[DL]

That deserves a karma point and you have decreased unemployment - at least temporarily (although if they really liked him it could become a full time job ) ;D

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

In the pure bred world there are very few judges that actually sort the cattle for what they are instead of who's on the halter or registration papers. Politics run rampant at all of the majors and the majority of the minor shows. In our breed if you send me a copy of the entry forms ahead of the show and the name of the judge - I will place the classes and pick grand and reserve both bull and heifer and be right 80% of the time or more. So now you ask why do I spend all of the time and money going to shows? I never go to a show thinking I'm going to win anything - I go with the intent of promoting my cattle to as many people as I can. Ribbons and trophies don't pay many bills but I have developed a pretty good customer base a crossed the country by showing up with good functional cattle that will work for our customers in the real world. It would be a wonderful world if we would go back to sorting the animals for what they are and preasure the breeders to bring good functional cattle that are at least close to the age that they are entered as and not be full of air or oil. Maybe I have been on the road just a little too long but it's a great theory!

 

[chambero]

I don't think that many are truly "fixed".  You probably have to have a certain level of reputation to be truly in the running many times though.  It's kind of like foul calls in the NBA, the stars get the benefit of the doubt.  "Ties" go to the kid they've known or seen. 

In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure that's so bad.  In every endeavor, one has to pay their dues. 

There are so many good calves most of the time it's hard to fairly criticize a judge too often.  The other thing to remember is calves look one way to us up in the stands, but the judge is at an entirely different angle and may see something different.

99.999% of the times I hear someone whining about getting ripped off they are full of it.  Nobody ever likes to get bit, but objectivity is usually liking.  And people are always going to participate in mankind's favorite sport - griping.

 

[sjcattleco]

Well here are just a few examples.....

the year PADO Boxer won NAILE.. Hunsley appears in the ring and tails him around it for 2 laps...and he wins .... Imagine that !!!! The year Cagwin buys MSF Equity... He wins... imagine that!!!!

We took our bull Majestic to Louisville he was nice.. he was a dead ringer for JJ Denim who sold for $10000 that fall... infact the guys who were showing JJ Denim actullay tried to take Majestic and they had to check out his tattoo to prove that I was not switching bulls on them.... we were in the wash rack together....  My bull was same size as Denim one class younger and 220lbs heavier... Even the guys that were showing Denim admitted Majestic was a better bull... Majestic was last in his class and Denim was first in his , The very next class... Needless to say I was mad and there were several others that were crying fowl as well!!!

I will also say that there are way more sales that are fixed/ rigged/ bogus than shows.....

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

In our breed it has become so obvious not only to the breeders but to the people in the stands that the right cattle with the right people on the halter are the ones that win. Last year at our National show, an hour after the show was over about the only people that knew who was the National champion bull was, were the people in the ring showing the division champions. It's sad that the politics in the show ring have made winning a National show such a non event - most of the shows are judged on the papers (politically correct pedigree and EPDs) or the right owner or showman on the halter. Maybe our breed is worse than most but if you don't think politics plays a role in at the very least, the major shows, it's time smell the coffee burning.
PS - I was stalled a crossed the isle from our reining National Champion bull for a week and never found him. After 30+ years on the road - I have been known to find a "good one" if he's there.

 

[Telos]

Road Warrior... good insight about how this showing cattle stuff works, IMO. I started showing steers in 1961. No, I wasn't the first steer jockey,but looking back it was a time when honesty and practicing good ethics was the right thing to do and part of the norm. Today it's probably the exception, with politics and even financial gain weighing heavy in the judging decisions of open breeding and even junior shows. It seems like it's becoming more difficult to find  judges that can be objective and somehow not be connected to particular breeders or exhibitors. Many of the judges today are either fearful or just don't have the backbone (trying to say it nicely) to select cattle honestly, plus it's easy to justify whatever decisions they make and also be convincing when evaluating a group of cattle.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

We show to promote what we have to sell, but it still kind of irritates me when a judge goes on and on about how sound and correct an animal is and when you follow him out of the ring, he drags a leg so bad that it leaves a "snake" track in the saw dust. Don't mind getting beat ( but it is cool when we win) but I really wish that the reasons a judge uses would fit the cattle. Sometimes when I'm watching a show and listening to the reasons I wonder what set of cattle the judge is talking when they're going ouit of the ring. My point being that - if you're going to use another animal to beat me at least use reasons that are believable and correct - tell me that my mustache is too long to stand any higher in class - anything that is real and believable and I will go along with your placings!

 

[Telos]

Road Warrior, we must have been at the same shows?

I won't mention what breed, but the grand bull at a major show dragged his hind legs so bad, when he walked,  I was surprised he had any hooves left. The judge said he was extremely sound. Knew the breeder and went over to congratulate him on his win. He said his bull was "so sound he could climb a tree". He and the judge must have been buddies.

 

[DL]

Telos - it is possible that the bull owner and the judge used the same eye doctor! That could explain why they missed the dragging foot - I believeit is hard to climb a tree, especially if you are a bull, with one non functional hind limb!

RW - Your breed? Red Angus?Shorties?

 

[Telos]

DL, it's possible neither judge or the cattle breeder has ever had an eye exam, period. Yearly eye exams should be mandatory for cattle judges!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

DL Still in the Reds. Good cattle if the people don't screw them up.

 

[Show Heifer]

I agree with all of the above!
But, I point the finger to money...to the glory of the purple banner.
I'm with RW...I go to shows to promote my cattle, not to win. I would rather have a big check than a purple banner.

I think the line between cattle judge/cattle owner/cattle enthusist/ cattle jock/ cattle breeder gets blurred. Human nature to pick your friends, pick your clients. Example: If I bred Bob the bull and sold him to Jones. Jones promotes the crap out of him and shows him. I am a respected breeder and judge (ok, a stretch there!! ;D) so I am ask to judge the national show. Jones shows up with Bob. Remember, I bred and raised Bob. Of course I like him, I raise the type of cattle I like (duh) so of course I am going to compare all others to him. Now that is not to say another bull won't be better (whatever "better" is), but I bred/raised Bob, so he's gonna be the one to beat. Fair? Not exactly. Acceptable? Maybe. Human? Yep.

Do I think shows are 100% honest? No. But why should they be? The cattle certainly aren't honest most of the time. Birth dates changed, bloodlines blurred, breeds mixed, color changed/enhanced, ownership challenged. Do we expect an honest judge to judge dishonest cattle??

RW: what do you think of the Reds idea of mixing EPD's? And giving up BW epds????

 

[itk]

If the judge knows who he will use to win before a show the animal is probally a decent individual and can be talked as a winner. IMO most of the stuff people think is fixed is conspiracy theory stuff. Sure some things look fishy but it is just how the show world is. I personally don't mind losing at major shows to major breeders. In my mind they have paid their dues and all things being equal should probally be lined up in front of me. It is my experience that the actual show is just a small part of the show and just looking like you fit in is a victory especially in shorthorns. In the alleys, bars and hotel elevators is where the real action happens at the shows. If there is truly a great one in the barn and doesn't win trust me they will still get noticed. Another thing to think about is when animal owners don't show their own animals in the ring, is that cheating. I know there have been instances where we have had people show our animals so we are cheaters. I hate to call her out but I have never seen Malinda show one of her own animals either so she must be a big cheater also (sorry if you have I just must have missed it.) Not everyone can win and we all do little things to get the upper hand, some is just more obvious then others. IMO both Boxer and Equity have done enough good that I don't have a problem with them being called National Champs, whether they were the best that day or not.

 

[DL]

So you are saying ITK that cattle judging is just like figure skating - it isn't who skates best on a given day but how they practiced, how they rank, how they paid their dues (I guess they are changing the judging system) - I guess if I have the best heifer on the day I should win whether I am rich, famous, important, a big breeder, on the board, a judge or anything else - now that is sad.

I can't see how not showing your own animal is cheating - professional handlers show dogs, horses and cattle - if we follow your logic - you need to fit and clip your own cattle too or you are cheating. First that would put a lot of people out of work and second it would discriminate against anyone who is infirmed, handicapped, elderly, etc and wanted to show cattle....

 

[afhm]

Watch the open shows at the majors, and if the judge of breed X has/shows Angus (or whatever breed) most of the people showing breed X that day will be Angus people.  It gets pretty funny to watch after a while and happens in all breeds.

 

[itk]

So you are saying ITK that cattle judging is just like figure skating - it isn't who skates best on a given day but how they practiced, how they rank, how they paid their dues (I guess they are changing the judging system) - I guess if I have the best heifer on the day I should win whether I am rich, famous, important, a big breeder, on the board, a judge or anything else - now that is sad.

I can't see how not showing your own animal is cheating - professional handlers show dogs, horses and cattle - if we follow your logic - you need to fit and clip your own cattle too or you are cheating. First that would put a lot of people out of work and second it would discriminate against anyone who is infirmed, handicapped, elderly, etc and wanted to show cattle....

I'm just saying that I have enough respect for some breeders that if we have animals of exactly the same quality then I have no problem standing second to them. To me how we place in a show is about the last thing I think about. I can live with placing lower then I should if we got alot of traffic in the stalls and I think our cattle look good. Winning is nice but if the only reason that you show is to win a banner then you are doing it for the wrong reason. If you think that everytime you show and lose it is someone else's fault sounds kind of childish to me.

Follow me on the other people showing thing. A few years ago in Louisville the judge was from California, Don Cardey also happens to be from California so guess who showed our better cattle, it wasn't me. Did having Don show our cattle effect how they placed I don't know. Even if having Don show effected how our cattle placed by one spot we purposely had him show in the hope our cattle would place better. Making the outcome the show different then it might have been if I showed could be considered "fixing" the show. So if you want to get literal about the meaning of "fixed" I think having someone else show your cattle would qualify as cheating.