AAOK
Well-known member
What a boring game! O-State got ripped; should have been in this game. Neither Bama or LSwho deserve to be National Champs.
BCS what?
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What a boring game! O-State got ripped; should have been in this game. Neither Bama or LSwho deserve to be National Champs.
OLD WORLD SHORTIE
Well-known member
Pretty sure Okie lite would not have been within 5 touchdowns of Alabama.
nkotb
Well-known member
Cruiser said:
Especially when your offense can't move the ball.
Let me start out by saying that I'm a life-long oSu fan. No doubt the 2 best defenses were playing last night. But at what point do you have to think about some offensive ineptitude? Alabama was able to move the ball because they spread it around. LSU did the typical Les Miles thing. The kept running the ball between the 2 tackles (which is how you beat speed.....run right at them) pretty much the entire night, with the exception of a few option plays (went nowhere) and trying to pass when they were in those predictable situations. Thant being said, if oSu were to have squeaked in that game against LSU, we could have had some success in my opinion, just because of the offense we have, and the tempo that they play.
Mack Brown had a quote going into halftime of the Holiday bowl that UT was in that I loved. The game was pretty low scoring, due to pretty bad offense by both teams. When the reporter asked him what adjustments they were going to make to try and get things going in the 2nd half, he replied with "If this were an SEC game, you guys would be bragging on how great the defenses are!"
Yes, defense wins championships, but defense can't win championships by itself.
Mack Brown had a quote going into halftime of the Holiday bowl that UT was in that I loved. The game was pretty low scoring, due to pretty bad offense by both teams. When the reporter asked him what adjustments they were going to make to try and get things going in the 2nd half, he replied with "If this were an SEC game, you guys would be bragging on how great the defenses are!"
Yes, defense wins championships, but defense can't win championships by itself.
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
I dont think there was any doubt the 2 best teams in the nation where on the field last night. Nothing against OSU but Bama most definately would have slaughtered them and LSU probably would have handled them pretty easily as well. No doubt LSU went in there undefeated in regular season play, in what was most definately the toughest Division and Conference in the nation this yr. And LSU and Bama were pretty evenly yolked teams. Their first match up was the kind of game that is fun to watch cause they hung right with each other. Where Miles screwed up majorly was not changing his game any. When you have already faced a foe as tough as Bama once in the year and barely pulled it off, you have absolutely got to change up your game plan before the next match up. Because you can guarantee that other team is at home watching tape and seeing what they need to change to get around you, Bama did that and they came prepared for what LSU threw at them the first time. LSU's big mistake was throwing the same game at them, or rather the lack of throwing anything. Bama capitalized and shut them down. But still nobody can say the 2 best teams in the nation were not on the field last night. Heck their only losses in the season came to each other. I think you have to give Bama the edge because their win was a shutout(and I am a Tiger fan) but I still think they need to play again in a few weeks and make it a best 2 out of 3 for those 2 teams to determine who the real National Champs are.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
Arkansas and OSU are about the most similar teams I can think of in terms of style of play.
Arkansas was dominated by both of the teams playing last night.
LSU played West Virginia on Sep. 24th. The West Virginia offensive players were not real familiar with that system (Dana Hogerson, WVU coach was oSu's offensive coordinator a year ago), leading to 4 turnovers by the Mountaineers, and there was also a kickoff return by LSU for a touchdown. WVU outgained LSU 533-366. WVU QB Geno Smith set school records for completions, attempts, and passing yards in that game. That leads me to think we would have had success against LSU. Alabama? I don't know. I would like to think that we'd have moved across the 50 yard line alot sooner than LSU did, anyway.
Jeff_Schroeder said:
JSchroeder
Well-known member
You conveniently left out the fact that West Virginia lost that game by nearly four touchdowns. LSU also caused three turnovers against Arkansas. That's what happens to hurry up spread offenses when they face teams with secondary’s that include Heisman candidates and defensive lines that can put pressure on the QB.
If you want to excuse that large a loss because of the four turnovers, I can think of another loss to tack on to OSU's record that was only a win because of four second half turnovers.
That makes three games LSU and Bama have played against teams with very similar offensive schemes to OSU and they won them by an average of 25 points.
Their offenses are hardly "inept" as you put it. In addition to the #1 and #2 defenses, those were also the #12 and #16 scoring offenses.
If you want to excuse that large a loss because of the four turnovers, I can think of another loss to tack on to OSU's record that was only a win because of four second half turnovers.
That makes three games LSU and Bama have played against teams with very similar offensive schemes to OSU and they won them by an average of 25 points.
Their offenses are hardly "inept" as you put it. In addition to the #1 and #2 defenses, those were also the #12 and #16 scoring offenses.
nkotb
Well-known member
Irregardless of who ended up winning, you have the number one conference in college football, SEC, and the number two conference in football, Big 12, and the only game they play each other in is the Cotton Bowl? Whether or not the offense's are inept (I would say OSU would have handled themselves a lot better), this game just reinforces the need for some sort of playoff system to determine a national champion. It would have been neat to see a high powered offense go up against one of the SEC's high quality defenses.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
LSU beat the #3 scoring offense in the nation by 13 points.
Where exactly is this idea that LSU hasn't faced a high powered offense or a team like OSU come from? They've done both.
The SEC and Big XII did meet earlier in the year when Arkansas beat A&M in a game that was almost identical to the game OSU had against them the week before. The two teams were extremely similar. OSU v Arkansas would have been a great game.
Where exactly is this idea that LSU hasn't faced a high powered offense or a team like OSU come from? They've done both.
The SEC and Big XII did meet earlier in the year when Arkansas beat A&M in a game that was almost identical to the game OSU had against them the week before. The two teams were extremely similar. OSU v Arkansas would have been a great game.
Yes, they lost the game. Yes, they lost it by 3+ touchdowns. Turnovers are part of being an opportunistic defense. You don't have to tell me that. Look who the leader for turnovers forced was this season. But, you also have to agree that oSu's offense is light years ahead of Alabama's. Alabama just got through scoring 21 on LSU, so what makes you think they would do better against us? By the way my argument is how oSu and LSU matchup, not oSu/Alabama. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument was who deserved a shot at LSU. If it makes you feel better, I think LSU is the better team. But, we'll never know. You've brought up valid points, but so have I.
Jeff_Schroeder said:
Why are you pulling A&M into this? That program was in freefall this year. Also, maybe I'm biased, but I think oSu is a little bit better of an offensive team than WVU. The only reason I brought them up, was that they run the EXACT spread-type offense that oSu does. Sure they had trouble. WVU's QB/receivers have not had near the reps in that system that ours have, and they still put up 500+ yards on LSU. So what makes you think I would expect anything else from Weeden/Blackmon and Co.?
OKshorthorn
Well-known member
Jeff_Schroeder said:
Arkansas and OSU are only basically the same in your eyes simply because they both throw the ball. LSU has not faced an offense anything close to what OSU has, not close. You can throw out as many stats as you would like, it just isn't close. Starting with their QB, who couldn't hold Weeden's jock strap, to our 2 deep at running back would start for Arkansas, to the best wide reciever in the nation the last 2 years against who from Arkansas? Just becuase they have a similiar style of offense does not mean the 2 are comparable.
The argument is against LSU, not Bama, they had their shot at LSU in the first game. LSU's secondary is their weakest point on defense. What makes you think that Weeken wouldn't have another 300 yard passing day against them? Unless you sell out to stop the pass, then you can ask OU how that worked out.
Mueller Show Cattle
Well-known member
I had posted in a past post about this championship game, I had a feeling that Alabama was going to put a beating on LSU cause Alabama would have won the last game if they would not have missed so many field goals. I also knew there would be a good amount of Alabama fans at the game which there was a big sea of red in the stadium and they made plenty of noise. I was hoping for OSU to play LSU cause I think it would have been a better game, a shut out last night was not much excitement in that game.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
Point by point because I don’t want to work…
I don’t, I think OSU would put up points on LSU just like Oregon and West Virginia did. They would also go to town on that 60th ranked defense just like they did against every team the played this year other than Alabama.
I’m not a fan of LSU. I do think they’re easily the 2nd best team in the nation and the idea that a team that lost to Iowa State should have been in the national championship game is bogus. For the record, no team that has lost to a team with a losing record has ever played in the national title game.
Several reasons.
1 – You tried to water down the 26 point butt kicking LSU laid on West Virginia by citing the excessive amount of turnovers. If a person is going to do that for a 26 point loss, they need to admit that OSU’s one (really three) point win at A&M would have been a loss by the same standard.
2 – OSU and Arkansas played A&M on consecutive weeks and the two teams were amazingly similar. OSU had more star power in Weeden/Blackmon and Arkansas was deeper but the two teams reminded me a ton of each other. It’s relevant to this conversation because the only two losses Arkansas had were 20+ point losses to LSU and Alabama.
I’ve never said OSU wouldn’t score on LSU. Notice that I only cited the differentials in those games. LSU can play with offensive teams, they just weren’t playing with one last night. The Big XII schools like Tech under Leach, Baylor, OSU, and A&M have warped people’s minds into thinking that scoring is all that matters.
No, that’s not the slightest bit true. If it were I’d say that OSU and any passing team are similar but I wouldn’t say that.
They both like to run hurry up/no huddle offenses and both have just about the same run/pass ratio. I brought up that comparison in reply to a comment about the tempo, which both teams are pretty similar in. Their defenses are both similarly weak.
You mean the secondary that ranked 9th in the nation (ypg) against the pass and had the 5th place Heisman candidate? Is that the secondary you are speaking of?
LSU's defense is #9 in the nation in passing yards per game and as you say, it's the weakest point in their defense. The highest ranked passing defense OSU faced this year was Texas at #47. HALF of the teams OSU played this year were ranked between 104th and 119th in passing defense per game. It wasn't just because of the terrible Big XII defenses. OSU had two OOC games against teams in the bottom three in passing yards per game.
Putting up big passing numbers isn’t what win games any way. Have we already forgotten Weeden’s 2nd highest passing total of his career?
If I wasn’t clear that I think OSU would have put up points, I apologize. I thought the fact that I was talking about differentials would have made that self-explanatory. I must say though that to think that LSU’s scoring output would have looked anything at all like it did against Alabama if they were playing OSU is rather naïve.
I don’t, I think OSU would put up points on LSU just like Oregon and West Virginia did. They would also go to town on that 60th ranked defense just like they did against every team the played this year other than Alabama.
I’m not a fan of LSU. I do think they’re easily the 2nd best team in the nation and the idea that a team that lost to Iowa State should have been in the national championship game is bogus. For the record, no team that has lost to a team with a losing record has ever played in the national title game.
Several reasons.
1 – You tried to water down the 26 point butt kicking LSU laid on West Virginia by citing the excessive amount of turnovers. If a person is going to do that for a 26 point loss, they need to admit that OSU’s one (really three) point win at A&M would have been a loss by the same standard.
2 – OSU and Arkansas played A&M on consecutive weeks and the two teams were amazingly similar. OSU had more star power in Weeden/Blackmon and Arkansas was deeper but the two teams reminded me a ton of each other. It’s relevant to this conversation because the only two losses Arkansas had were 20+ point losses to LSU and Alabama.
I’ve never said OSU wouldn’t score on LSU. Notice that I only cited the differentials in those games. LSU can play with offensive teams, they just weren’t playing with one last night. The Big XII schools like Tech under Leach, Baylor, OSU, and A&M have warped people’s minds into thinking that scoring is all that matters.
No, that’s not the slightest bit true. If it were I’d say that OSU and any passing team are similar but I wouldn’t say that.
They both like to run hurry up/no huddle offenses and both have just about the same run/pass ratio. I brought up that comparison in reply to a comment about the tempo, which both teams are pretty similar in. Their defenses are both similarly weak.
You mean the secondary that ranked 9th in the nation (ypg) against the pass and had the 5th place Heisman candidate? Is that the secondary you are speaking of?
LSU's defense is #9 in the nation in passing yards per game and as you say, it's the weakest point in their defense. The highest ranked passing defense OSU faced this year was Texas at #47. HALF of the teams OSU played this year were ranked between 104th and 119th in passing defense per game. It wasn't just because of the terrible Big XII defenses. OSU had two OOC games against teams in the bottom three in passing yards per game.
Putting up big passing numbers isn’t what win games any way. Have we already forgotten Weeden’s 2nd highest passing total of his career?
If I wasn’t clear that I think OSU would have put up points, I apologize. I thought the fact that I was talking about differentials would have made that self-explanatory. I must say though that to think that LSU’s scoring output would have looked anything at all like it did against Alabama if they were playing OSU is rather naïve.
OKshorthorn
Well-known member
I'm assuming you are in the crowd that thinks Oklahoma State's defense is the 103rd (or whatever the number is, same ESPN scale that has LSU and Alabama 1 & 2) best in the country?
I'm going to include a couple links to a website called Football Outsiders. These guys do a little more research than take the total yards gained by the opposing offense to rank a defense. For example, RGIII was something like 15-27 for 173 yards and 2 interceptions with no touchdowns in the first half. Score was 35-0. Our first team defense played about half of the 3rd quarter, score at the end of 3 quarters? 49-3. Yet ESPN's analysis shows our defense gave up 622 yards and 446 passing yards, although 75% of those yards and 21 points came against 2nd and 3rd string defenders, seems logical to rank a defense like that doesnt it?
LSU's offense is completely 1 dimensional. They run the ball effectively, no doubting that. But I will take my chances with an All American safety (Martin) and corner (Brown), along with a first round draft pick (Gilbert, next year) on the other corner manning up against their recievers and stacking the box. Sure they may get burned a couple times a game, but trying to play keep up with OSU's offense is a little difficult with no passing game.
The "honey badger" sure looked good last night. How many times did they throw it right at him for a big play? It's pretty well known that their secondary is the weakest position for LSU's defense.
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2011
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/fei
I'm going to include a couple links to a website called Football Outsiders. These guys do a little more research than take the total yards gained by the opposing offense to rank a defense. For example, RGIII was something like 15-27 for 173 yards and 2 interceptions with no touchdowns in the first half. Score was 35-0. Our first team defense played about half of the 3rd quarter, score at the end of 3 quarters? 49-3. Yet ESPN's analysis shows our defense gave up 622 yards and 446 passing yards, although 75% of those yards and 21 points came against 2nd and 3rd string defenders, seems logical to rank a defense like that doesnt it?
LSU's offense is completely 1 dimensional. They run the ball effectively, no doubting that. But I will take my chances with an All American safety (Martin) and corner (Brown), along with a first round draft pick (Gilbert, next year) on the other corner manning up against their recievers and stacking the box. Sure they may get burned a couple times a game, but trying to play keep up with OSU's offense is a little difficult with no passing game.
The "honey badger" sure looked good last night. How many times did they throw it right at him for a big play? It's pretty well known that their secondary is the weakest position for LSU's defense.
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2011
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/fei
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
LSU did face some offenses that tried throw the ball, they won those games largely because of their defenses ability to pick off passes. I am not discrediting OSU in the slightest, I just think its tough to make an argument that the 2 best teams in the Nation were not in the Championship game last night. Everybody wants to discredit LSU because they got shut out last night, and its true it was pretty embarassing. But I tell you what lost that game for LSU last night, their lack of a coach. Les Miles is the sorriest excuse for a college football coach out there. He left Jefferson in the game all night because he felt that Lee couldnt handle the pass rush from Bama. True Jefferson didnt get sacked, but he did lose a lot of ground staying away from the pass rush. Jefferson has one play in his arsenal that he can actually pull off and thats running and Saban brought the Tide in ready to shut it down and that they did. Jefferson may be able to avoid the pass rush, but what he fails at is thinking on his feet while he is doing. When he sees the pass rush coming he does one of to things, run backwards or get rid of the ball with out looking. He made 4 passes right to Bama last night. I am not saying LSU would have beat Bama if Miles would have pulled Jefferson last night, but they would have at least got on the board. Even if he didnt think Lee could handle the pass rush, his 3rd string QB is one of best in the nation. Most coaches out there would have cleaned house with that LSU team, because talent wise this LSU team is probably one of the most stacked teams ever. Everybody wants to point to the fact that Miles has a National Championship, do they forget he won that Champ with Nick Sabans last freshman team at LSU? They had already beat Saban at his house this year, better believe he was coming with a vengance, and Saban knew Miles was an idiot so he spent all that time preparing to shut down the running game because he knew Miles wouldnt change his game. LSU had a 13-0 record going into that game Jefferson was only QB in 4 of those games, Lee won the rest, and if Jefferson wouldnt have had playors like Mathieu to back him up he wouldnt have won the 4 he did play.
If I were on the board at LSU Miles would have been looking for a job first thing this morning. Personally I hope they let Michigan have him!
If I were on the board at LSU Miles would have been looking for a job first thing this morning. Personally I hope they let Michigan have him!
OKshorthorn
Well-known member
This lowest ranking of Oklahoma State's defense between both of the 2 systems they use is 15th. The highest is 1st. This system says that Oklahoma State has the #1 defense in the country, imagine that!
As an example, Football Outsiders has a criteria based on a game being "close." If a game isn't close, they don't use the yards/points scored against the defense. They define close as being within 24 points in the first quarter, 21 points in the second quarter, and within 16 points in the second half.
As an example, Football Outsiders has a criteria based on a game being "close." If a game isn't close, they don't use the yards/points scored against the defense. They define close as being within 24 points in the first quarter, 21 points in the second quarter, and within 16 points in the second half.
Jeff- no apology necessary. We arguing valid points; so is everyone else on here. Nothing wrong with that at all. I do however think that people discount the talent of defense, when they happen to run against fast paced "Air-Raid" (I hate that term) offenses (such as several Big XII teams), but when a defense like we're talking about play agains more smash-mouth, 3 yards and a cloud of dust type offenses, they call that "great defense". The bad thing is, we'll never get the chance to see what would happen. We could argue this forever, and it wouldn't change anything.
BTW, Gundy won't use it as an excuse, but I will.....The plane crash that happened when they were in Ames tremendously affected that team. That game should have never been played that night.
BTW, Gundy won't use it as an excuse, but I will.....The plane crash that happened when they were in Ames tremendously affected that team. That game should have never been played that night.
