Breeding Brown Cows for Club Calvs

[SEA]

I own some brown cows.  They are the resullt of flushing a red and white, 1/2 blood Simmi cow to an Angus bull, OCC Legend, for producing replacement female.  I got good cattle, but brown.  I bred the Legend cow back to Ali and got a brown heifer, which I kept.  Last year I bred the brown Legend daughter to 3C Karisma (PB Simm/black) for hoping for a black replacement heifer.  She just calved and I received a another brown heifer.

My question...

What Club Calf Sire (to produce teminal club calves), or what female sire (for club calf replacement females, can I breed A.I. to and get black calves?  Is this possible or can't I get blacks consistently?
Should I breed for, Smokey colored calves?  Although, there is not much market for Smokey's in my area.  If so, what Club Sire should I A.I. to.  As I have no experience with using Smoke colored bulls.

Thanks in advance.

 

[SEA]

Has anyone used Smooth Sailing?

 

[OH Breeder]

Here is my limited understanding of Brown in cattle

Cattle have three basic coat colors: Black, Brown, and Red. These are caused by a single pair of genes which govern how much (and what color) of pigment is produced. The black gene is dominant over the other two, and causes the hair to be black. The red gene is recessive to the other two, and causes the production of red pigment only. The brown gene, which is probably the original, "wild" type color, causes the production of both red and black pigment in varying degrees, resulting in a color that ranges from red with some dark on the legs and head, to nearly black. Usually these nearly-black cattle have a brown or mealy muzzle. Also, brown bulls tend to be darker than brown cows; the shoulders, head, neck, and legs are typically darker than the body, and the color darkens with age.

Now how to breed around it I would have to think on that one.

 

[Mark H]

If you want black calves the only way around the problem is to use homozygous non diluter bulls and breed it out eventually.  The quicker way to deal with the problem is to use a Charolais bull to get a smoke or buckskin calf.

 

[SEA]

Here is my limited understanding of Brown in cattle

Cattle have three basic coat colors: Black, Brown, and Red. These are caused by a single pair of genes which govern how much (and what color) of pigment is produced. The black gene is dominant over the other two, and causes the hair to be black. The red gene is recessive to the other two, and causes the production of red pigment only. The brown gene, which is probably the original, "wild" type color, causes the production of both red and black pigment in varying degrees, resulting in a color that ranges from red with some dark on the legs and head, to nearly black. Usually these nearly-black cattle have a brown or mealy muzzle. Also, brown bulls tend to be darker than brown cows; the shoulders, head, neck, and legs are typically darker than the body, and the color darkens with age.

Now how to breed around it I would have to think on that one.

That is very interesting, OH.

If you can figure a way (or bull to use), to breed around it, please post again.  Thanks,

 

[SEA]

If you want black calves the only way around the problem is to use homozygous non diluter bulls and breed it out eventually.  The quicker way to deal with the problem is to use a Charolais bull to get a smoke or buckskin calf.

Mark H.

What Charolais bulls and smoke coloerd bulls do you reccomend?

I have heard of the bull, Yellow Jacket, is he one?

 

[Mark H]

SEA,

I am not thinking of using any Charolais crossbred bulls particularly those with out performance information.  Plus a white Charolais bull will guarantee a buckskin or smokey calf out of your cows.  No off white cross bred can give any of these things. 
Right now Genex has some Charolais bulls that will work  on a wide variety of cows for around $ 20 a straw. EC No Doubt is easy calving, has good growth, and a good REA on his calves.  For more power look at SVY Pilgrim.  Very soon the 2010 National Western Stock Show Champion (Montezuma) will have semen foe sell as well.  Check them out at: http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=BYBREED&Breed=Charolais&lang=EN.
An alternative is to use a bull like MXS Vermillion or HFCC PLD Evolution from the Serhienko program: http://www.voegelibros.com/.
Keep in mind these bulls have strong cow families backing them up making the heifers good candidates to keep as cows.

 

[OH Breeder]

SEA,

I am not thinking of using any Charolais crossbred bulls particularly those with out performance information.  Plus a white Charolais bull will guarantee a buckskin or smokey calf out of your cows.  No off white cross bred can give any of these things. 
Right now Genex has some Charolais bulls that will work  on a wide variety of cows for around $ 20 a straw. EC No Doubt is easy calving, has good growth, and a good REA on his calves.  For more power look at SVY Pilgrim.  Very soon the 2010 National Western Stock Show Champion (Montezuma) will have semen foe sell as well.  Check them out at: http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=BYBREED&Breed=Charolais&lang=EN.
An alternative is to use a bull like MXS Vermillion or HFCC PLD Evolution from the Serhienko program: http://www.voegelibros.com/.
Keep in mind these bulls have strong cow families backing them up making the heifers good candidates to keep as cows.

anything domestic. Looks like those fellas are Canadian?  Would they be available across lines?
SEA you were looking for clubby sires right?

Mark

What about ....
Freds Husker
Hoo Doo Prince
RC Denver
White Warrior
MT-HLS LEAD ON  popular for slick shear I hear?
George

 

[Mark H]

The EC No Doubt bull is from South Dakota.  Both Pilgrim and Montezuma are going to be sold through Genex in the United States so I see no availability issues.
As far as MXS Vermillion and hard copy,  I would be more concerned with the United States rights  being tied up.  MXS Vermillion was being used by Wells Charolais in South Dakota for example via a semen package they purchased.
On the other bulls:
Freds Husker:    Calving Ease with a decent growth profile not a carcass bull.  The best bull you listed.
HooDoo Prince:  Appalling EPD numbers.  He isn't merely below average he is way below average;  skip him.  I have a tough time getting excited by HooDoo breeding and this is why.
RC Denver:  Calving ease bull from Rambur Charolais.  Mediocre EPD profile and not as good as his sire Three Trees Wind 0383.
White Warrior:  Only has projected EPDs and for a 2002 model not a good thing. EC No Doubt has better REA numbers and has produced show cattle as well.
HooDoo George:  Again a 2002 model with only projected EPDs.  Projected EPDs are not bad but no calving ease here.
MT-HLS LEAD ON:  For a 2000 model lousy accuracies on the EPDs.  Not a calving ease bull with a +4.6 birth weight EPD.  Individual performance (ratios) aren't good.

After beating up on your bull picks keep in mind plenty of other Charolais bulls both American and Canadian can produce show steers.  Don't assume that just because a bull is being promoted that he is the best bull available.  This is particularly true for clubby breeders that do not know the Charolais breed.  You can get better maternal and calving ease by using bulls that are putting out calves that are worth registering.  The reason why these bulls have EPDs that are projected or have low accuracies because they aren't good enough to use on purebred cows-its just that simple.  A bull worth experimenting with is LT Rio Blanco.  He puts out good females, performance and throws thicker than he looks. 

 

[BadgerFan]

I would breed them to a RED non-dilutor (like a red bull from two black parents).  You're more likely to get a red calf.  From there, you can breed the resulting heifers homo blk.  While red bulls or steers might not be perfect, they're more saleable than brown.

I'd use GCF Mr. Amigo if they were mine.

 

[Mark H]

Badgerfan,

The only problem with your plan is that the cows will pass on the diluter gene to the calves and when you takr their offspring to a black bull you will get the same issues.  Better to use the diluter gene to your advantage.

 

[Show Steaks]

well the 1/2 blood simmental could carry a red or brown gene but when bred to Legend(purebred angus and HOMOZYGOUS BLACK) the resulting calves will be BLACK.

p.s. sullivan black dye. they'll always be black then

 

[OH Breeder]

Couple years back there was a kid that had a chocolate steer that was really cool. He was a tank and stood out at every show. He looked like a Hershey bar chocolate really rich color. It wasn't that bad. He won a couple big jackpot shows. He always stood out in class.

 

[Mark H]

Just remember they all are the same color when you get the hide off.  A good steer will always place consistently no matter the color IMO.

 

[BadgerFan]

Badgerfan,

The only problem with your plan is that the cows will pass on the diluter gene to the calves and when you takr their offspring to a black bull you will get the same issues.  Better to use the diluter gene to your advantage.

Yes, that's still possible, but you could also get lucky enough to lose the diluter gene in the mating with the nondiluter bull.  I guess I'm just not a fan of purposely making smokes unless you can fill a pot load with them.