while watching the IL beef expo i was noticing how some of the breed steers are getting a little more crossbred looking..I have a full understanding that some (sim,herf,or shorts) don't have to be completely pure to show but come on they need to at least look like the dang breed .. i seen some simmys that i think i have more sim in me than them! and some herfords that didn't have very traditional markings ...ill get off my soap box but how do these people get papers !
breeds getting carried away! after watching the expo
- Thread starter blinggirl
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bruiser
Well-known member
Great observation! My Ag teacher daughter just mentioned recently her class had been doing work on purebred's . She was horrified at the picture of a Chi bull in their book. But I can get Chi papers on myself if I wanted to! Just remember all it takes is a set of papers and a breeding certificate.
OLD WORLD SHORTIE
Well-known member
Dont need papers at the Texas Majors, all you gotta do is kinda look the part. <cowboy>
As a Simmental breeder for 40 years, I can vouch for the fact that this breed has changed over time. Most all breeds have, and particularly those with open herd books, allowing for the introduction of commercially acceptable or economically desired traits like a black hide or a polled head. Purebred American Simmental today don't look like the cattle that were imported in the 1960s, and I don't see why they should. Breeders have been vigilant about progressing the breed and changing the traits that did not suit the commercial sector. Still, I do think it's important for all of us to realize and remember where we came from as a breed, what changes we've been through, and what the original gene pool looked like. It's basically history for cattle breeders.
HAB
Well-known member
leanbeef said:
If all breeds go after the same traits, overtime, they all become the same breed.
hevmando
Well-known member
When searching for a hunting dog a few years ago, many breeders told me there is more variation within a breed, than between breeds. Probably true with cattle also.
LLBUX
Well-known member
Unfortunately there are breeders using bulls within their herds that are not purebreds and are selling them off as papered purebreds.
A perfect example is the Carpe Diem bull and similar 'fakefords'. He is siring so many Hereford-appearing calves that half the champion drive in
bigger purebred shows is often/likely out of him. And they may well have purebred papers!
I am not picking on Hereford cattle, just using the first and best example that comes to my mind. Each breed has had its share of
outlaw blood introduced in an effort to 'improve' the breed and/or excel in the showring.
Maybe Texas has it right, I don't know. It is too bad that a kid anywhere can be classed out of a breed with a PUREBRED animal while
another can class in with something with little or no blood of that breed.
Don't know how many breeders can look in the mirror or teach their child knowing how they have manipulated parentage, pedigrees, birthdates,
origins and identification of animals they have sold. Not everyone is guilty of these practices, but enough folks are that it casts a shadow of
doubt and mistrust over all breeders.
A perfect example is the Carpe Diem bull and similar 'fakefords'. He is siring so many Hereford-appearing calves that half the champion drive in
bigger purebred shows is often/likely out of him. And they may well have purebred papers!
I am not picking on Hereford cattle, just using the first and best example that comes to my mind. Each breed has had its share of
outlaw blood introduced in an effort to 'improve' the breed and/or excel in the showring.
Maybe Texas has it right, I don't know. It is too bad that a kid anywhere can be classed out of a breed with a PUREBRED animal while
another can class in with something with little or no blood of that breed.
Don't know how many breeders can look in the mirror or teach their child knowing how they have manipulated parentage, pedigrees, birthdates,
origins and identification of animals they have sold. Not everyone is guilty of these practices, but enough folks are that it casts a shadow of
doubt and mistrust over all breeders.
LLBUX said:
I seriously doubt that many carpe diem calves are in the papered shows. Maybe some, but I highly doubt that half of the purebred hereford cattle that are showing at Denver, NAILE, Kansas City, Fort Worth, Houston and so on are out of this bull. No doubt in Texas there are club calf cattle that are sold and shown as hereford, but remember that the classification system in texas is phenotype only. If the buyer lives in Texas and shows hereford club calf cattle or any breed of club calves and actually thinks that they have a purebred animal you best do your homework. I do not know of one breeder that tries to hide the fact that they are selling crossbred hereford show steers or any other breed. Please take a look at all of those that are advertising the hereford club calves this month imparticular. All of them have listed the bulls that they are out of, now if the buyer is dumb enough to believe that carpe diem, made right etc. are purebred they again need to do your homework. If a breeder is papering those cattle shame on them, it will eventually come out because of the TH issue. I would hate to be that person or that papered that animal because it will eventually get back to their program and their days of making a living from livestock will most likely be over. Now as far as traditional markings of herefords please! I can show you tons of papered animals that are in no way traditionally marked, but I feel are completely purebred hereford.
whereselway
Member
Along the same lines...I live in Texas, transplanted from Montana, where American cattle were few and far between. I watched the ABC's classify at Ft. Worth, and I was amazed at how many hairy, exotic steers with some sheath and brisket got in, and consequently, the higher percentage American cattle got waxed in the show. It made me wonder why anyone would bother to bring a steer with more than a smidge either real or man-made, of American in it, knowing they were gonna walk around the Watt and be done? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.
Then I watched the Red Angus classify at SA, and there were more than a few purebreds that classed out, for reasons that were not obvious or made known. When my daughter and I went to our first Texas summer show, I remember being told that the shows are won or lost at classifying. I thought that was ridiculous...I don't think it's such a stretch now. We too have been gifted by the classifying gods...last year at SA my daughter had a Shorthorn/Maine steer that we snuck in as a Limi and placed him 3rd.
Then I watched the Red Angus classify at SA, and there were more than a few purebreds that classed out, for reasons that were not obvious or made known. When my daughter and I went to our first Texas summer show, I remember being told that the shows are won or lost at classifying. I thought that was ridiculous...I don't think it's such a stretch now. We too have been gifted by the classifying gods...last year at SA my daughter had a Shorthorn/Maine steer that we snuck in as a Limi and placed him 3rd.
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
I have liked this post because I think there have been some very good points brought up, even if they were not noticed. As we know many of the breed associations have introduced "Breeding Up" programs to "Improve" their breeds. Introducing other breeds in order to improve on certain areas of their breed. Many breeders have jumped on board in order to be more competitive and provide possibly better opportunities to market their cattle outside of their own breed, while some breeders have stayed true to what the breed was intended to be. I think we are going to look back, and it may not be all that far in the distant future, and thank those breeders who stayed true. I agree with what was said, it seems all the breeds are selecting for the same traits, which is going to eventually lead us to a time when all breeds are going to be the same and we are going to lose the diversity that was once present. The reason for this is that they are all selecting for same traits and if a calf possesses those traits we praise it, rather it maintains breed characteristic or not. I think my biggest eye opening experience for this came with goats, yes goats. Now I am no goat expert, but I have judged a good many, and even showed them a short while when I was younger. So I can tell you a good goat when I see one, and tell you where one needs to be fixed. Anyway a few years ago I was working for a farm and we also had a fledgling boer goat herd. Now our main goal was research, and we sold some show whethers. But we also showed a lot of the does we kept. Anyway I had gone through the herd and picked what I thought were the best doelings from that crop of kids to keep and show. And there were some nice doelings in the group. They went to some shows and got slaughtered and we just couldnt understand. Then our herd consultant came one day to tell us which ones he would keep and which to sell, etc. The does I picked were the bottom of his group, so I asked him to explain. And he told me one little thing, breed character. He said if we were just producing show whethers it would be one thing, but trying to maintain a registered herd and show does they would kill us on it. You want to know the only breed character they were missing, the "roman noses". These does were awesomely built, but they were either flat faced and a few even slightly dish faced, and he said the judges would hang us out to dry on it. So I went to a couple shows and watched and he was right. There were some great does gettin buried for lacing this little bit of breed character. Their reason, if the animals didnt posess the breed character how could we expect them to pass on the traits of the breed, either bad or good.
Thining back it maes sense, there are many different breeds of cattle for a reason. They all have a different purpose. If we make all the breeds the same then we inevitably take some breed away from its purpose and leave some purpose unfilled. I am not saying that these crossed matings are bad, it gives highbred vigor and commercial cattleman have been doing it for yrs in order to create a herd that produced what the market wanted and to do it in their climate or situation. The downside is the commercial cattleman went to the purebred breeders to find the breeds that delivered what they needed to cross with something else, and put together a cross of breeds to meet their needs. If all the breeds are the same they will no longer have the ability to do that, which wouldnt be an issue if we new that the market and demand for a certain type of animal was going to always be ther same. but we now that isnt the case, demand and desire will change, and if all the cattle are the same, we wont be able to change to meet that desire without again importing cattle from another country. This isnt a worldwide industry issue, its an American issue. I dont disagree with improving breeds, but I do get concerned with the total lack of concern for maintaining breed character. Its also in my opinion the problem with purebred calves getting classed out at shows. With all the "outlaw" blood as it was put earlier, there are many man registered animals that do not meet the characteristics set forth by the breed their registered with, but in the registered world the papers are all that matters, yet in a classification situation its all phenotype, and the truth is that a lot of registered calves are farther away from their breed standards than the heinz 57 crosses that show up.
Thining back it maes sense, there are many different breeds of cattle for a reason. They all have a different purpose. If we make all the breeds the same then we inevitably take some breed away from its purpose and leave some purpose unfilled. I am not saying that these crossed matings are bad, it gives highbred vigor and commercial cattleman have been doing it for yrs in order to create a herd that produced what the market wanted and to do it in their climate or situation. The downside is the commercial cattleman went to the purebred breeders to find the breeds that delivered what they needed to cross with something else, and put together a cross of breeds to meet their needs. If all the breeds are the same they will no longer have the ability to do that, which wouldnt be an issue if we new that the market and demand for a certain type of animal was going to always be ther same. but we now that isnt the case, demand and desire will change, and if all the cattle are the same, we wont be able to change to meet that desire without again importing cattle from another country. This isnt a worldwide industry issue, its an American issue. I dont disagree with improving breeds, but I do get concerned with the total lack of concern for maintaining breed character. Its also in my opinion the problem with purebred calves getting classed out at shows. With all the "outlaw" blood as it was put earlier, there are many man registered animals that do not meet the characteristics set forth by the breed their registered with, but in the registered world the papers are all that matters, yet in a classification situation its all phenotype, and the truth is that a lot of registered calves are farther away from their breed standards than the heinz 57 crosses that show up.
HAB
Well-known member
Twistedhshowstock- Very good post. My breed has been fighting off the "breed up" breeders fo decades. We are seeing a resurrgence in our breed, for that very reason. We are an OUTCROSS and offer something different = HYBRED VIGOR.
We have worked hard to maintain the traits that make our breed what it is.
HAB
We have worked hard to maintain the traits that make our breed what it is.
HAB
kfacres
Well-known member
HAB said:
just kinda a random observation, but you fend off crossbreeding--- but promote it... I know why-- it still doesn't make much sense though-- why not practice what preached?
HAB
Well-known member
Cut the BS said:
I do, in my commercial cattle. I keep my fullblood cattle, so they are an option for others to use and benefit from.
RenFarms
Well-known member
This article appeared in Beef magazine several years ago. It seems relevant to this discussion. The resurgence of interest in the Galloway breed may be due in part to the perceived need by producers to inject true hybrid vigor into their breeding programs, as well as improving maternal structural correctness.
What is a breed? by Roy Wallace and Harlan Ritchie
http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_breed
"What is a breed? Is there really such a thing as a purebred?
Let's begin by defining what a breed is. The late Hilton Briggs, the quintessential authority on breeds and author of the book, “Modern Breeds of Livestock,” defined a breed as: “a group of animals that, as a result of breeding and selection, have certain distinguishable characteristics.”
Briggs goes on to define a purebred animal as “an individual both of whose parents are duly registered in a Registry Association.”
It's interesting to note that Briggs says nothing about “breed purity” or “percentage of blood” in either definition. If one delves back into livestock history, it can be concluded that very few populations of so-called “purebred” cattle existed. Rather, nearly all breeds were developed by combining various strains of cattle within a region into a generally agreed-upon type.
British breeds
The Shorthorn breed was created by selecting the best of the native, short-horned cattle in northeast England and infusing them with a small amount of Galloway blood. The Hereford breed was developed by infusing the native cattle of Herfordshire in southwest England with Flemish cattle imported from the low countries in Europe.
Shorthorn blood is reported to have been introduced into the Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. And the Red Poll breed originated in the English countries of Norfolk and Suffolk where some Galloway and Devon breeding eventually found its way into the breed.
As near as can be determined, two British breeds appear to have remained free of outside blood — Galloway and West (Scotch) Highland.
Galloway originated in southwest Scotland's Galloway province. When the Romans first populated England, cattle roamed the region's forests. These indigenous cattle became the progenitors of the Galloway. Today, Galloway are recognized as the oldest breed of beef cattle in the British Isles."
The article can be read in full at the above link.
Issuing percentage pedigrees may be a nice income generator for any breed association, but at some point a line is inevitably crossed, and breed purity is degraded. And once it is degraded, genetically speaking, it becomes very difficult to return to the breed's genetic 'true north'. Or that's the way I see it.
Kind regards...
What is a breed? by Roy Wallace and Harlan Ritchie
http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_breed
"What is a breed? Is there really such a thing as a purebred?
Let's begin by defining what a breed is. The late Hilton Briggs, the quintessential authority on breeds and author of the book, “Modern Breeds of Livestock,” defined a breed as: “a group of animals that, as a result of breeding and selection, have certain distinguishable characteristics.”
Briggs goes on to define a purebred animal as “an individual both of whose parents are duly registered in a Registry Association.”
It's interesting to note that Briggs says nothing about “breed purity” or “percentage of blood” in either definition. If one delves back into livestock history, it can be concluded that very few populations of so-called “purebred” cattle existed. Rather, nearly all breeds were developed by combining various strains of cattle within a region into a generally agreed-upon type.
British breeds
The Shorthorn breed was created by selecting the best of the native, short-horned cattle in northeast England and infusing them with a small amount of Galloway blood. The Hereford breed was developed by infusing the native cattle of Herfordshire in southwest England with Flemish cattle imported from the low countries in Europe.
Shorthorn blood is reported to have been introduced into the Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. And the Red Poll breed originated in the English countries of Norfolk and Suffolk where some Galloway and Devon breeding eventually found its way into the breed.
As near as can be determined, two British breeds appear to have remained free of outside blood — Galloway and West (Scotch) Highland.
Galloway originated in southwest Scotland's Galloway province. When the Romans first populated England, cattle roamed the region's forests. These indigenous cattle became the progenitors of the Galloway. Today, Galloway are recognized as the oldest breed of beef cattle in the British Isles."
The article can be read in full at the above link.
Issuing percentage pedigrees may be a nice income generator for any breed association, but at some point a line is inevitably crossed, and breed purity is degraded. And once it is degraded, genetically speaking, it becomes very difficult to return to the breed's genetic 'true north'. Or that's the way I see it.
Kind regards...
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
Well there will always be outlaws in everything you do, those people who win at all costs and have no regards for playing by the rules. Back when I was showing herfs in highschool there was a family that just dominated our shows. My Senior year they got into a lot of trouble, turned out that the calves they showed were all at least 1/4 simmi. They had a neighbor that ran Red Simmi or % Simmi bulls over herf cows, they would watch his herd, and if he had and awesome, herf marked heifers, they bought them telling him they were using them to make herf marked show steers. It wasnt until he showed up at the state fair one year to watch them show and told people that he sold them the heifer they won with that people got suspicious. Because the heifer was registered as a bred and owned out of one of their cows and their herd bull. Turns out none of their show string DNA'd right.
So you will have this in just about every thing you do. But I dont think you can blame the breed in those instances, its just individuals playing dirty.
So you will have this in just about every thing you do. But I dont think you can blame the breed in those instances, its just individuals playing dirty.
DLD
Well-known member
I'm not condoning showing cattle as something they're not, but you can't blame it on Carpe Diem or Made Right or any other bull. Those bulls were bred and promoted for a particular purpose - to produce Hereford marked show steers for the southern market where visual classification is simply how the game is played. It's not against the rules here, even for them to be out of Heatwave (and yes, some of them are). If they look Hereford enough to classify, then they are Hereford steers at OYE, Fort Worth, or many other shows. Nobody's claiming they're registered, nobody's gonna try to register a calf out of 'em - your breed isn't being harmed, it's being helped when one of those "Hereford appearing" steers wins grand or reserve. Face it, if he was a true registered purebred, he most likely wouldn't get it done.
There are breeders everywhere who are willing to register a calf as something they're not. It's always been that way, and it prob'ly always be. That's not because of visual classification at some steer shows. It's because integrity comes somewhere behind winning and/or making a dollar for some folks. Bottom line.
There are breeders everywhere who are willing to register a calf as something they're not. It's always been that way, and it prob'ly always be. That's not because of visual classification at some steer shows. It's because integrity comes somewhere behind winning and/or making a dollar for some folks. Bottom line.
knabe
Well-known member
Angus got rid of breed character along time ago getting rid of horns, white, roaning.
I believe the only breed that has remained true to itself is Red Angus. As of today I have yet to see any show updates that proclaim a Heatwave or Monopoly sired calf as champion Red Angus steer or heifer. Good for you all in the Red Angus breed.
