Clone update

[Tooker]

  Sorry Mark for digging up that can of worms. LOL. I'm with Jill on this deal & I'm gonna breed the bulls that I like & PPL can use the clones if & when they want. I want what I want. If I see a good few out of a clone, I will consider the bull, but I think that the chance of that actually happening are slim just B/C of the fact that most of the good ones are called the original anyway. It will be VERY hard to change my mind. I am an old stuborn fool sometimes. Ok, most of the time.

If I see a good few out of a clone, I will consider the bull, but I think that the chance of that actually happening are slim just B/C of the fact that most of the good ones are called the original anyway.
Not to keep beating a dead horse but, this statement is 100% correct. We don't know how many are actually HW or the clone's but, I have a lot of work done @ Trans Ova and they told me that there is know way of knowing the difference. I also know (very reputable) breeders that won't touch the original but, have smaller bw's out of the clones with the same out come of revenue. JMO and a couple of other's though. Look at Lautner's catalog; HW OR CLONE ON THE WINNERS; YOU CAN"T TELL. Very few will be honest about a good one being out of a clone. JMO

 

[showsteerdlux]

Dusty,  now you know that us idiots disagree with that statement and Knabe has tried to explain that they do not breed the same more than once.

Is there much of the original Ali semen available? I couldn't get any from ABS more than a year & a half ago.

I've got some that I can sell for the right price. Not overpriced either.

 

[j3cattleco]

[/quote]
If I see a good few out of a clone, I will consider the bull, but I think that the chance of that actually happening are slim just B/C of the fact that most of the good ones are called the original anyway.
Not to keep beating a dead horse but, this statement is 100% correct. We don't know how many are actually HW or the clone's but, I have a lot of work done @ Trans Ova and they told me that there is know way of knowing the difference. I also know (very reputable) breeders that won't touch the original but, have smaller bw's out of the clones with the same out come of revenue. JMO and a couple of other's though. Look at Lautner's catalog; HW OR CLONE ON THE WINNERS; YOU CAN"T TELL. Very few will be honest about a good one being out of a clone. JMO
[/quote]


There are differences in the clones and the originals.  I have seen at least 10 different sets of clones standing next to each other and have yet to see a clone that looks identical to it's host.  I know somepeople will say this is due to environement.  My rebuttal then is how do their markings not match either.  One of the most notable examples is the 401 blue chip cow of mimms.  That cow is freakin awesome, however her clone is by no means and as good nor has she ever produced anything like her host.  We can go into the great discussion that the bio-engineers have had on here before as to the chemistry as to it but I will leave that to the experts.  And of course Trans Ova tells you they are the same.  they want you to clone one of your animals and believe you are getting the exact same thing not something close. 

 

[knabe]

search for what you want to hear and you will find it.

 

[simtal]

T I know somepeople will say this is due to environement.  My rebuttal then is how do their markings not match either.

Because uterine environment determines color patterns

 

[j3cattleco]

then they are not identical!  My point exactly!

 

[PaddyO]

Well... I might as well put my 2 cents in here 2. I have seen great calves out of all these clones. I have seen some sorry ones out of these clones. That is just the way any bull will be. However, saying that, I have prob seen the best calves out of #6. On top of that, as someone said earlier.... Some of the great Heatwaves might just be called out of him when they are from a clone. SUMMARY: It all depends on how the chromosomes line up.haha and that's the science tip of the day!! (clapping)

 

[VJ]

There were two older clones at Hawkeye last Saturday. I think they were 4 and 6. They looked identical! Both were plenty straight on their back legs but still moved well enough to breed a cow. HW 11 was also there. He acted wild as a deer. None of the other bulls were the slightest bit nervous. Evidently environment/recip has a lot to do with tempemant.
BTW- Ree Heights looked great.

 

[justintime]

So.... I will ask the question then, if these clones are not breeding as well as the original, why do people spend the money on cloning then? Why not just go out into the big world out there, and find another great one? I understand the part about full sibs not breeding the same( eg: Trump and a couple of his full brothers are a world apart... there are many other examples). I have seen full sisters that are completely different in their breeding ability... that part I can relate too. But if a clone is not going to be exactly what he was derived from, I question why you would bother. The genetics in Heatwave are not irreplacable. I would suggest that there are hundreds of cows out there capable of producing a bull like Heatwave, if  bred the same way. Is it just because some people want to ride on the success of an individual animal? I thought the main reason to clone was to produce an exact replica. Not so I guess.

I also would like to ask how uterine environment determines color pattern? That is a new one to me. I always was of the opinion that the uterine environment in any pregnant female was fairly constant. A pregnant female looks after the fetus needs before she will look after her own needs. If she is on poor feed, she will make sure her calf will get whatever nutrients it needs before she will use any for her own body requirements. It is only when nutrients get low enough to not maintain the pregnancy that the fetus may die and be aborted. I have seen some pretty thin cows over the years that have very healthy calves.

A neighbour of mine, bought some bred cows at a local auction mart that were so weak they could hardly get up. He bought them for a very few dollars, thinking he would calve them, grass them and sell them all in the fall . He normally purchased some yearlings to grass, but thought these cows may return more dollars. I saw these cows shortly after he bought them, and I thought he was crazy. I thought he would lose some cows and calves at calving time. The cows looked terrible. Maybe he got lucky, but he did not lose a cow or calf and by fall this set of cows looked pretty good. In fact he kept some of them as replacements in his herd. he tripled his investment on the cows and calves he sold.

 

[Jill]

I am going to have to call BS on the uterine environment determining color pattern.  If that Shorthorn embryo goes into an Angus recip that calf will NEVER be black no matter the environment it is being raised in.

 

[farwest]

I will have to call bs on that myself Jill, no way.  I call bs on the clones not breeding identical also.  I believe they do, have been told they do on a cow that's been flushed to different ones and the original.  I think we let our imagination get carried away with the inconsistencies that are already there with these crossed up bulls.  jmo.

 

[Jill]

That may be, all I know is in my experience we have never had a throw away from the original, the Wave on Waves went to the sale barn.

 

[bcosu]

I am going to have to call BS on the uterine environment determining color pattern.  If that Shorthorn embryo goes into an Angus recip that calf will NEVER be black no matter the environment it is being raised in.

i believe that some black calves can have white markings because the pigmentation did not reach the skin because it was in contact with the placenta or something. i am pretty sure that the color of the hide of the recip has nothing to do with the markings on the calf. don't know how an angus works never getting white on it though, it must be something about homozygous black and the pigmentation being guaranteed to touch all the skin.

 

[justintime]

I am quite sure that uterine environment has nothing to do with color pattern. Occasionally a calf will be born with a birth mark but that has nothing to do with determination on color.

 

[klintdog]

If the uterine environment did effect pigmentation, every recip herd in the country would be out of business. Our local embryologist is setting folks up with commercial recip herds that can be a mix of baldies, char crosses, angus, hereford, you get the idea. As a purebred breeder, I would flip a lid if my ET calves started coming out with white faces or smokes, or what have you. I'm guessing she wouldn't be in business very long otherwise.

If this were true, and you put a Shorthorn embryo in an Angus recip, wouldn't you end up with a blue roan? Now that's hypothetical!

 

[smurf]

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that the color pattern in cloned dairy cattle is usually not the same but the ratio to black vs. white will ALWAYS be the same. 

 

[Dusty]

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that the color pattern in cloned dairy cattle is usually not the same but the ratio to black vs. white will ALWAYS be the same. 

I've talked to a couple guys that have studied cloning etc and they have said that a white spot say won't be exactly the same with regards to shape or position on the body, but the spot will be the same size and have the same amount of white hair follicles as the original animal.

 

[ELBEE]

For an example: We have a pair of Dorothys that were split from the same embryo, then put in the same recip, born as twins. They are similar, but obviously not identical, color or type.

On this Heat Wave deal, my question is. How many of these club calves over the years have actually been sired by clean-up bulls and credited to Heat Wave soully for the purpose of bringing buyers to the farm?

 

[dlc]

If I remember right they cloned Scamper, Charmaene James's world champion barrel horse and he was a sorrel and his clone was a palimino.

 

[JSchroeder]

I am going to have to call BS on the uterine environment determining color pattern.  If that Shorthorn embryo goes into an Angus recip that calf will NEVER be black no matter the environment it is being raised in.

You’re confusing color pattern with distribution of color pattern and there is a rather larger difference.  It’s not going to change the color of the animal, just the distribution of the color.  For example, the motley face can be different but they’re still motley faced.

Think of it in terms of Hampshire pigs, where I first heard of the concept.  Like you I called it "BS" until somebody showed me the research.  The pigs are still going to be black and white but the color pattern is slightly different depending on where the piglets are within the uterus.

Honestly, relative to a good portion of the claims made in this thread and the thread on sex distribution based on the time of the breeding, the concept of uterine placement having an impact on distribution of color is about as solidly researched as it gets.