Consequences

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DL

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There has been a lot of talk lately on several boards about using drugs not approved for cattle in a way that does not meet the legal requirements according to the FDA. Those of us who think it is important to protect the food supply, use drugs responsibly and LEGALLY, and know about the extra label drug use laws (ELDU) and AMDUCA have taken a fair amount of grief - which suggests to me that people are not setting the best example for their children.

Next time you think it is OK to use a drug not approved for use in cattle in an extra label fashion without following ELDU or use a drug that is approved for use in cattle in an extra label manner think not only the message you are sending to your children but also of the potential consequences -

In addition to being humiliated (I am sure) this kid lost a chunk of change that would go a long way toward a year of college. It would certainly behoove everyone who is producing food to know and understand the law and abide by it. Like they say on TV ignorance of the law is not excuse...

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/geauga/119658815295020.xml&coll=2


 

Doc

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It's hard for me to believe the father didn't know better. I hate it for the kid who trusted the judgement of his father & the fitter. It also has tainted the winnings of his siblings in my opinion wether there was any wrong doings or not. 
 

red

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Ohio has had too many champions disqualified for illegal drugs/substances. They are really doing a good job of detecting them. Anyone that takes the chance of not getting caught for the purple is just foolish.
I feel sorry for the kids but it's their projects & they need to stay on top of the situation. They have done a really good job in Ohio w/ the BEST programs on educating the youth on what is not legal. No one should play the ignorant part.

Red
 

chambero

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There have been more than a few positive tests for Dex in steers tested here in Texas over the years.  They knew what they were doing, got caught, and now will pay the penalty.  I commend the show for making their finding public.

In regards to the other threads you mentioned. I daresay anyone that has shown cattle for a long time has used ace or thorazine that their vet gave them.  DL - I know you'll disagree, but its a long way from using a tranquilizer on a young calf at its first show or two to giving a drug before a terminal show. 

A lot of very good vets all over the country prescribe it.  That is a reality.  That's why you get flak.  You are one vet they don't know telling them no, when vets they do know prescribe it.

Can I "morally" or "ethically" defend its use?  No.  But I can with common sense.  It may not be approved for food animals, but the cc or 2 you give a show heifer that probably isn't going to get killed for ten years doesn't add up to near the dosage of other things common commercial cattle ingest from the air or on plants that aren't intended for use in food animals (herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals, petroleum, etc).  It has nothing to do with not working with your calf or trying to mess with one that is too wild to begin with.  It isn't just used by "cheater" at shows.  Its used by people involved in embryo transfer/AI, vets for other procedures, etc. 

However if you are brazen enough to use tranquilizers or any other drug (including antibiotics or dewormers) at or too close to a terminal show or a show with public testing policy, you deserve what you get. 

 

DL

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chambero said:
A lot of very good vets all over the country prescribe it.  That is a reality.  That's why you get flak.  You are one vet they don't know telling them no, when vets they do know prescribe it.

I just love selective following the law when it is unlikely that you will get caught. Chances are chambero these good vets don't actually prescribe it - if they did there would not be bottles laying around in show boxes - if the good vets followed the law there wouldn't really be such an issue. The notion that it is common sense so my little kid doesn't get hurt is hog wash to me - what about the paradoxical effects of the drug - what about the potential dangers to other peoples little kids? Wouldn't we all be delighted when the drugged animal hurts our little kid. People use it - yup you are correct. Vets leave bottles for people - yup again, you are correct - and it is wrong (and incidently against the law) and really showing a great example for our youth.  How do you explain to your kid that oh yes we can give this drug now but not later because we might get caught. We are responsible and we should do the right thing.

PS red - right on!! Agree with what you said 100%  "No one should play the ignorant part".


My hat is off to the Ohio State Vet
(clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

Below is a description of AMDUCA and ELDU which we as food producers really should be familiar with.

Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act

EXTRALABEL DRUG USE
(ELDU)

An Informational Outline of the Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act (AMDUCA)

If you have questions about the
regulations call the Food and Drug Administration,
Center for Veterinary Medicine at (240) 276-9200

REQUIREMENTS FOR USE

    * ELDU is permitted only by or under the supervision of a veterinarian.
    * ELDU is allowed only for FDA approved animal and human drugs.
    * A valid Veterinarian/Client/Patient Relationship is a prerequisite for all ELDU.
    * ELDU for therapeutic purposes only (animal's health is suffering or threatened). Not drugs for production use.
    * Rules apply to dosage form drugs and drugs administered in water. ELDU in feed is prohibited.
    * ELDU is not permitted if it results in a violative food residue, or any residue which may present a risk to public health.
    * FDA prohibition of a specific ELDU precludes such use.†(See gray box below )


†Drugs Prohibited for Extralabel Use in Food Animals (Current as of June 2003. Check for updates on the FDA Web site at www.fda.gov/cvm)

    * Chloramphenicol
    * Clenbuterol
    * Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
    * Dimetridazole
    * Ipronidazole
    * Other Nitroimidazoles
    * Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
    * Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
    * Fluoroquinolones
    * Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
    * Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
    * Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)


*RECORD REQUIREMENTS

    * Identify the animals, either as individuals or a group.
    * Animal species treated.
    * Numbers of animals treated.
    * Conditions being treated.
    * The established name of the drug and active ingredient.
    * Dosage prescribed or used.
    * Duration of treatment.
    * Specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), if applicable, for meat, milk, eggs, or animal-derived food.
    * Keep records for 2 years.
    * FDA may have access to these records to estimate risk to public health.


**LABEL REQUIREMENTS

    * Name and address of the prescribing veterinarian.
    * Established name of the drug.
    * Any specified directions for use including the class/species or identification of the animal or herd, flock, pen, lot, or other group; the dosage frequency, and route of administration; and the duration of therapy.
    * Any cautionary statements.
    * Your specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time for meat, milk, eggs, or any other food.

 

Show Heifer

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First off, if "vets" are prescribing these drugs to terminal animals, they should have their licenced yanked. PERMENATELY.
That is the biggest load of crap ever.

Second, some folks seem to think just because their vet was dumb enough (or un-moral enough) to give them a bottle of dex, banamine, bute, etc, that makes it OK. Or that "everyone else is using it" makes it ok. Or that "for the safety of the little ones" makes it ok. WELL IN MY BOOK, AND LIFE, IT DOESN'T.  Just because you may know the dosage doesn't make it ok either.
For the "safety of the little ones" arguement: if the calf isn't broke enough to go to the show, or if the child isn't confident enough to handle it safely, then leave the calf and kid at home and work more. I realize things happen and calves and kids can "freak out" but I firmly believe if the calf has been worked with enough, it won't freak to the point of hurting anyone. That has been my experience anyway.

I guess I always have to laugh when everyone comes unglued calling me all sorts of names....if it is so darn RIGHT and so darn LEGAL, then why does everyone try to hide the bottles and do the drugging at trailers or tie outs where no one can see? Hmmmmm...makes ya think they might realize they are doing something wrong doesn't it??
 

Joe Boy

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Jan 31, 2007
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A person I know had a steer at houston that won a class and tested positive for "illigal medication"; dextamethozone. the father administered it when a swollen hock appeared after they got to houston. dex is NOT a performance inhancing drug. it is an anti-inflamatory drug and has no affect on the appearance of the steer. the father admitted giving the drug after consulting with a vet at the show.
at the hearing, the vet refused to appear or comment on the situation and the kid forfeited all of the money. a little more than the steer brought in ohio, but the rules stated "no foreign material". that means medication, used for or not for performance inhancement.
the label is the law.

if you don't understand the rules, ask. if you still don't understand the rules, don't play.

Good point show heifer.....  I have seen pigs, lambs, calves and goats in trailers and listened to pigs squeel....  people set up all night with short walks and pumps... etc....  If it is all legal, why is it that no one will tell you their secret mixture..... eggs and wheat germ only go so far....

I have used dex on a donkey and on two rams that had gotten into a fight and we were trying to get them well so we could breed.  I think it is made for horses...Right DL?
 

dutch pride

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SW Michigan
chambero said:
prescribe it.

Can I "morally" or "ethically" defend its use?  No.  But I can with common sense. 

In my way of looking at things, if it is morally wrong and/or ethically wrong, it is just plain wrong. Trying to justify wrong behavior by saying it is common sense just doesn't make much common sense to me. It is like running a stop sign when no one else is around. It might make sense but it is still against the law. If we all could choose which laws to obey and which to ignore based on what each of us felt made sense would lead to complete chaos. JMO

DLZ
 

renegade

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Caldwell, Idaho
Im one of those people that if no one was in sight for 10 miles of that stop sign i still wouldnt run it because u never know who is looking... some cops are sneaky ::).  I really, as of right now, wouldnt know that dex was illegal  :))) but that is because i have never needed it and i havent done a whole lot of research of illegal drugs at shows because its never been an issue of mine... not enough shows and didnt have an unsound animal... but if someone did tell me to use it i can sure read a label and i wouldnt use it around show time with out checking and double checking with vets, hand books and a "show official"
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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We can't keep humans from using illegal drugs on themselves, let alone livestock.Whether it is a high you get from using a drug or a high you get from winning - there are people out there that can't stand the temptation. As far as livestock drugs go I can walk into my local clinic and buy any drug on their shelves without any questions being asked.
 

dori36

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I'd like to make a supportive comment to this from you, DL:  <<Wouldn't we all be delighted when the drugged animal hurts our little kid. People use it - yup you are correct. Vets leave bottles for people - yup again, you are correct - and it is wrong (and incidently against the law) and really showing a great example for our youth. >>

As to the common use of Acepromazine, it's common practice (not saying it's good or bad -  just 'common') among team ropers to "Ace" a group of roping steers if they come in too fresh and wild on their first few runs.  You just stick them in the chute, administer the shot, and let 'em 'settle' for a bit, and go to roping.  It's for practice roping, not competitions. Fast and wild is good if you're in it for the $$!

I team roped when I lived in Wyoming (heeler) and joined some good friends at their little private arena for casual, fun roping.  All the steers were new and all  got 'Aced'.  One of them went berserk!  I know that can happen with Ace, but I had never actually had the 'privelege' of seeing it up close and personal.  The steer crashed pipe fences, tried to run over all of us on horseback, bellowed and just generally went nuts.  It took three of us getting ropes on him and dragging him out of the arena to get everyone else safe.

Imagine that, as you said,  DL, if the steer someone Aces for their kids' practice sessions pulls that.  And I understand, some critters may not react adversely to Ace for many applications and, then, may have the psychotic episode out of the blue with a subsesquent application.  What a disaster that can be!
 

Show Dad

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If show clam won't do the trick the steer doesn't go into the ring or around the kids. No matter how much the animal cost (which is no where near 75K ;)). It's not worth it. It is only a show.

At shows you see many things get shoved in or shot in to the cattle. Many look better but it's artificial while a few get bloated or act up. Judges should (and some have but not enough) place these animals at the bottom. Maybe they should be disqualified but as long as some see a benefit they will continue to do it.
 

Show Heifer

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Wow dori.....talk about just one more reason for the public NOT to trust the Amercian Farmer to supply safe food.
great....just what we need. :mad:
 

dori36

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Show Heifer said:
Wow dori.....talk about just one more reason for the public NOT to trust the Amercian Farmer to supply safe food.
great....just what we need. :mad:

Not sure how the American Farmer factors in on Acing roping steers.  Help me understand your comment as I'm, apparently , l'm having a dense moment!  :D
 

Show Heifer

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So ace show cattle, ace rodeo stock, ace practice roping steers,  ace heifers that don't claim calves,  ace sows that eat their young.  Yes that still might be a small percentage of animals that reach the grocery store shelves, but as the e.coli scares show, each time something "taints" the food supply, we lose customers.  Each time we lose customers we give fuel to the animal rights activist that use ONE example to paint us all as animal abusers and animal druggers that are poisoning the public food supply. THAT is my point. Nothing personal towards you, just the segment of livestock world that thinks drugging animals is accceptable.
 

dori36

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Show Heifer said:
So ace show cattle, ace rodeo stock, ace practice roping steers,  ace heifers that don't claim calves,  ace sows that eat their young.  Yes that still might be a small percentage of animals that reach the grocery store shelves, but as the e.coli scares show, each time something "taints" the food supply, we lose customers.  Each time we lose customers we give fuel to the animal rights activist that use ONE example to paint us all as animal abusers and animal druggers that are poisoning the public food supply. THAT is my point. Nothing personal towards you, just the segment of livestock world that thinks drugging animals is accceptable.

Gotcha!  I wasn't adding  the roping steers into the big picture!  You're right, of course!  Besides contributing to the continued use of Ace off-label, it all goes to PR for the beef industry - the BAD kind!
 

Rocky Hill Simmental

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I've never used any calmer on my cattle. If they act goofy, they don't get showed - it's that simple. No championship is worth getting hurt over or ruining the steer.

The year before last I had a real nice angus x hereford x simmental and he was thick, a lot better looking than the steer I showed this year. He would have placed real well. However, he had the worst kicking problem. He could kick with hind legs while he was tied but he was still actually broke pretty good. I didn't show him because I didn't want some little kid to walk in his stall to pet him and end up flying across the barn. But seriously, that was one nice looking steer.

Around here there's a problem with people acing horses at sale barns. People bring in their horse with little kids riding them. The next morning the horse's are crazy. This happened to a friend of mine from highschool. He tried to ride a horse he got from the sale and it got him bad. He had to go to the hospitial and everything... and he brakes horses and rides bulls. Just imagine if it was a young kid who got just got their first horse.
 

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