Corrupt system

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bryan6807

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Joined
May 15, 2011
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318
Location
Zeeland, MI
it seems more and more people are starting to wake up to the corrupt socially engineered system we have in place. more people now than ever are starting to question our Gov't and realizing that with every alleged terror attack we are the ones losing our freedoms. the elite control the media and what is put out and they continue to demonize true patriots like Ron Paul in a attempt to turn people away from him. they have openly announced they want a new world gov't and when they say tax the rich they mean those who make $100,000 a year, not those like Bill Gates who is a admitted eugenicist (wants to reduce global population). I am just wondering if people on here are awake to what is really happening? the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results and by definition the american people are insane as we have continued to elect the Republicans and democrats over and over again and have not received positive results.
 

chiangus

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Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
461
Tell us how you would fix it.  You can rant without offering a solution.  I am not going to argue with you the current system is broke and going increasingly into national debt is not the answer. 
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Mar 22, 2010
Messages
2,070
Location
Centerburg, Ohio
What a can of worms.  I think a good start is each person only buy things produced in the USA. With that said, good luck with that. I think a rebirth of small agriculture could be a good place to start. If the American people complained about 60,000 trucks instead of 4.00 hamburger, we could start to see the light. I think we need to revisit the basics of what got us to BE this awesome country. Its like sports. When you find yourself in a slump, you go back to the fundamentals and start over. America needs a clean slate. We need to look at thing different. The younger generations have a lot to take on. We have to think different. How many people actually vote? Less then half. If that doesnt say something and bother you, then you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Its hard to fix a mess this big. Its like getting out of debt. Pay the little off, then move on to the bigger. No quick fixes IMO. This is a epic amount of debt. Hard to say what will happen. If the USA looses its AAA rating, it will make it that much tougher.



Happy Fathers Day everyone!
 

bryan6807

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Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
318
Location
Zeeland, MI
i was asking what everyone else thought chiangus, my solution is simple, end gov't entitlements, abolish the federal reserve and irs (back our currency with gold and silver) and shrink federal gov't. allow business to operate as they see fit without gov't regulation and taxes. its very simple. before 1913 this was the most thriving country in the world and liberal policies have destroyed what the founding fathers have built. americans need to grow a backbone and not be so up tight. accept personal responsibility and do not look for the rest of society to carry you.
 

wyatt

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Apr 25, 2011
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michigan
bryan6807 said:
i was asking what everyone else thought chiangus, my solution is simple, end gov't entitlements, abolish the federal reserve and irs (back our currency with gold and silver) and shrink federal gov't. allow business to operate as they see fit without gov't regulation and taxes. its very simple. before 1913 this was the most thriving country in the world and liberal policies have destroyed what the founding fathers have built. americans need to grow a backbone and not be so up tight. accept personal responsibility and do not look for the rest of society to carry you.
    ditto
 

hamburgman

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Feb 9, 2010
Messages
569
Hasn't our economy grown by considerable leaps and bounds under the Fed?  Also how does having your currency tied to gold solve all isssues, the devaluing of the dollar has caused a nice uptick in exports and help shrink the trade deficit, a dollar tied to gold doesn't allow that kind of flexibility in a recession.  I also find it funny that people who think the fed caused the great depression are the same people who want a gold standard, and in 1929 we were on a gold like standard and the fed raised interest rates because that was the correct thing to do to prevent people from withdrawing even more from the banks. Trevorgrey I also thing Pabst is a very under appreciated beer.
 

JbarL

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Location
30deg 17' 11.73 N 81deg 35'59.94&q
the "system" isnt whats corrupt....its when you assign "people" to over see it is when you get in trouble.....presently the middle class is being asked to foot the bill for city debt, county debt, state debt,and the national debt...this all wasnt even an issue 6 short years ago....you remember......how quickley we forget..
the present working generation cant be held responsible for the repayment of such enormus debt to be paid in any presidential 4 year term...when they say taxing the rich, there not talking those who make 100k....they are talking about those who make millions and billions...and why not??.....its not the "redistribution"  of wealth the right keeps trying to keep us focused on and fearful of.....its the even "distrubition" of debt that is the solution...as state and local governements are trying to cut pensions/wages and benifits of the middle class ( which is like taking a little sand off the desert)....no mention is made of the life time pensions/benifits and expenseses of politicians and families...or the costs of wars and rebuilding the middle east..
....the "fear" question the politicians put to us 10 years ago was "so do you want to fight them over there or do you want to fight them here?"....seemed like a no brainer at the time....but look whats its done to us now....jbarl
 

forcheyhawk

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Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
315
I agree with the original poster's sentiments in that the current political system isn't working for America anymore.  We live in the day and age of instant information at our fingertips.  We are a country of complex issues yet we elect one individual to represent a melting pot of differing ideas and opinions.  Many times those one or two individuals don't represent the beliefs of their OWN party much less the views of those of the opposing party.  There's too much time spent on a few details of a very complex bill that the masses think the underlying idea of the bill should be passed.  These inefficiencies slow down all aspects of our government.

This is what I propose:
1). A bill can only have one issue that it can address.  It can address more issues if those issues pertain DIRECTLY to the original idea of the bill.
2). Our elected officials only draw up bills - in this day and age the people should do the voting for themselves.  We have the power of the internet.  Yes I realize that it poses some security risks and those risks will probably replace all of the money changing hands between your senator and big business lobbyists.  I would rather track IP addresses and monitor those security risks than deal with the existing system.  The idea is that lobbying wouldn't shape the way that our bills are passed.  They may still shape the bills that are put in front of us, but that's much less effective because the people would have the power to reject it.
3). Taxes -- I think you should be taxed on goods purchased and food should not pertain.  We would increase the amount taxed on good purchased to say 15%.  This would apply to all other purchases including stock.  My theory is that if you can afford it - you pay the tax.  Payroll taxes would go away.  This would virtually eliminate the IRS.  You pay the tax when you buy the car and there's nothing to file at the end of the year with payroll taxes.  The bad part is that it would force business to pay taxes at the same rate as individuals.  I'm not sure of the economic impact of that as I don't have the information at my disposal required to figure it up.

Just some ideas I've tossed around over the years.  We have to find a way to reduce political corruption and involve the ideas of the majority.  IMO, the current system no longer does this.  Now shoot all the holes in the boat you want.  Just make sure that you provide some ideas of ways to fix.  ;D
 

knabe

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Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
JbarL said:
the "system" isnt whats corrupt....its when you assign "people" to over see it is when you get in trouble.....presently the middle class is being asked to foot the bill for city debt, county debt, state debt,and the national debt...this all wasnt even an issue 6 short years ago....you remember......how quickley we forget..
the present working generation cant be held responsible for the repayment of such enormus debt to be paid in any presidential 4 year term...when they say taxing the rich, there not talking those who make 100k....they are talking about those who make millions and billions...and why not??.....its not the "redistribution"  of wealth the right keeps trying to keep us focused on and fearful of.....its the even "distrubition" of debt that is the solution...as state and local governements are trying to cut pensions/wages and benifits of the middle class ( which is like taking a little sand off the desert)....no mention is made of the life time pensions/benifits and expenseses of politicians and families...or the costs of wars and rebuilding the middle east..
....the "fear" question the politicians put to us 10 years ago was "so do you want to fight them over there or do you want to fight them here?"....seemed like a no brainer at the time....but look whats its done to us now....jbarl

if you had some facts, it would be useful.  the top 10% pay 70% of federal taxes.  50% pay no federal income tax.  how can you give a tax break to people who don't pay taxes?  seems to me the people who are driving up the debt should at least pay something.  seems like a no brainer.  the left and the right rich are the one's driving the dependence on government.  it's not a left or right thing no matter how many times you repeat it.

Who Pays Income Taxes and how much?


Tax Year 2008

Percentiles Ranked by AGI

AGI Threshold on Percentiles

Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%

$380,354

38.02

Top 5%

$159,619

58.72

Top 10%

$113,799

69.94

Top 25%

$67,280

86.34

Top 50%

$33,048

97.30

Bottom 50%

<$33,048

2.7
 

JbarL

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Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
1,677
Location
30deg 17&#039; 11.73 N 81deg 35&#039;59.94&q
knabe said:
JbarL said:
the "system" isnt whats corrupt....its when you assign "people" to over see it is when you get in trouble.....presently the middle class is being asked to foot the bill for city debt, county debt, state debt,and the national debt...this all wasnt even an issue 6 short years ago....you remember......how quickley we forget..
the present working generation cant be held responsible for the repayment of such enormus debt to be paid in any presidential 4 year term...when they say taxing the rich, there not talking those who make 100k....they are talking about those who make millions and billions...and why not??.....its not the "redistribution"  of wealth the right keeps trying to keep us focused on and fearful of.....its the even "distrubition" of debt that is the solution...as state and local governements are trying to cut pensions/wages and benifits of the middle class ( which is like taking a little sand off the desert)....no mention is made of the life time pensions/benifits and expenseses of politicians and families...or the costs of wars and rebuilding the middle east..
....the "fear" question the politicians put to us 10 years ago was "so do you want to fight them over there or do you want to fight them here?"....seemed like a no brainer at the time....but look whats its done to us now....jbarl

if you had some facts, it would be useful.  the top 10% pay 70% of federal taxes.  50% pay no federal income tax.  how can you give a tax break to people who don't pay taxes?  seems to me the people who are driving up the debt should at least pay something.  seems like a no brainer.   the left and the right rich are the one's driving the dependence on government.  it's not a left or right thing no matter how many times you repeat it.

Who Pays Income Taxes and how much?


Tax Year 2008

Percentiles Ranked by AGI

AGI Threshold on Percentiles

Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%

$380,354

38.02

Top 5%

$159,619

58.72

Top 10%

$113,799

69.94

Top 25%

$67,280

86.34

Top 50%

$33,048

97.30

Bottom 50%

<$33,048

2.7
fact is....you have forgotten ( as usual) to figure in the billions and trillions of  subsidies to big oil/pharmaceutical/ and insurance companies ....lay the cost of the iraq war alone over our current debt and things start to become a little clearer....add the unnecessary subsidies and we could have been right back in this thing...jbarl
 

knabe

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Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
JbarL said:
fact is....you have forgotten ( as usual) to figure in the billions and trillions of  subsidies to big oil/pharmaceutical/ and insurance companies ....lay the cost of the iraq war alone over our current debt and things start to become a little clearer....add the unnecessary subsidies and we could have been right back in this thing...jbarl

is it possible to quantify the earned income tax credit, subsidies to green energy and compare and contrast them?  maybe add corn in the mix?

your argument sounds nice as usual, but you don't have the actual facts again.

ALL federal subsidies to the energy sector only tallied 14 billion.  the earned income tax credit was more than twice that, and projected to be 54 billion in 2012.

get rid of ALL subsidies.
 

chambero

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Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
The overwhelming problem is that the 50% of people that pay no income tax are by and large the largest consumers of "entitlements".

In regards to corporate subsidies, exactly what subsidies do big businesses get directly from the federal government.  Actually not that many.  Local cities give temporary tax breaks to companies for various things, but little comes from the federal government.

Where does the money that big businesses make go?  To their employees - whether its to their highly compensated executives or to their blue collar line workers.  And what happens to that money - it gets taxed - again.  When executives get paid huge bonuses in either cash or stock options - that money gets taxed.

I'm all for a national sales tax in lieu of income tax.  Our system is way too complicated.

But to call our entire country or political system a failure is ridiculous.  We are infinitely better shape financially han probalby any other country in the world - certainly including China. Perfect - no, but pretty good.  I wish that everyone who loves to thrash Republican or Democratic politicians would stop and think about what our standard of living is compared to the rest of the world - they aren't screwing it up that badly.

 

doc-sun

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Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
367
I don't think a national sales tax instead of income tax will ever be approved, but a combination of 3 things might work.  Income tax similar to what we have now, a smaller national sales tax (maybe with food excepted) dedicated to reducing the principal of the national debt, and a cap on the national debt at the time of passage of the sales tax.  If an acceptable long range plan could be formulated with this income together with entitlement cuts, we could reduce the debt if the country set it's mind to it.  The best thing Arkansas' state gov has going for it is that only 90% of anticipated revenues (with no debt) can be budgeted so things never can get way out of control because even if revenues are over anticipated for several years everything is corrected in the year after they decrease.
 

sjc

Active member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
34
Chambero:

If you for one second think the US economy is in good shape I have got some "Ocean Front Property for you in Arizona". Your debt is raising astronomically every day, you are fighting wars with never any hope of winning them, your unemployment numbers are extrememly high (and understated), your housing market is getting worse by the day and your President and many economists are saying the economic road ahead is going to be a "Tough Time". Thats doesnt mean you are headed for an economic recovery - it means you are slipping into a Depression.

Right now the US dollar is the Reserve currency in the world. If the US needs money to pay off its debitors, it simply prints more off. Thats fine and dandy but the US has been printing off more then it could ever pay back for years. You may think this crazy Canadian doesnt know anything...a depression right.

Well a depression happens if the World bank stops using US dollars as its reserve currency. It happened after WW1 when the US became the reserve currency of the world. If people around the world stop seeing the US dollar as a safe place to hold assets and your credit rating slips, they will change the reserve currency. Essentially the effect of that would be that the US can no longer print money to pay off its debts and essentially goes bankrupt. If you think the US could even pay off interest on the debts you are way off. Say the interest rate rises to a modest 6% and your debt stays what it is today. Do you know how much of your tax dollars it will take to pay off that interest? Over 60% ! Thats not healthy or sustainable. You woudl be thrown into a depression like you have never seen before.

China actually holds a lot of US debt and they have invested that money into hard assets (oil companies, buildings, land) because if the US dollar is lost so will the debt. If they have hard assets at least they have something. Why are New York city retailers accepting Euros as currency today in NYC?

Are you at the level now where this occurs? Thankfully no - not yet. But there are Economists out there that are on record saying that if the US doesnt get its debt under control, this scenario coudl play out within a year. Will the world let it happen? Your guess is as good as mine, however if my point is if you think economically you are in"pretty good" shape - think again. Your not. If you were do you think the bill which just past to cut Ethanol subsidies woudl have passed? Do some research - you need to enlighten yourself.

I live in Canada and am happy I do. I dont want to start a Canada versus US war. I am just pointing out facts to you.




 

chambero

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Messages
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Location
Texas
Not to sound antagonistic, but just what facts did you point out to me?  Nothing but generalities you can find on any news broadcast, talk show, etc.  I'm likely a lot more "enlightened" than you give me credit for - enough so to understand that neither me, you, or hardly anyone else that frequents this message board should pretend that we understand enough about the intricacies of world economics and financial policies to think we could solve the U.S. or world problems. 

Everyone loves to throw out the idea that China holds a lot of U.S. debt.  The fact is we hold a lot of their's also.  China currently breaks every guideline there is on how to borrow money.  The fact is that China is incurring much more debt than we ever thought about as they try to raise themselves up to a reasonable standard of living.  They throw money around all over the world (which they borrow from us and other countries) to dig up resources (fuel, metals) and buy food to feed their population.  Don't think for a second that anyone in the know in this country would trade places financially with China.  How many people in this country do you think own stock in Chinese companies (did you know that even their state-run companies sell stock?)  A lot.  People in the U.S. probably have more money invested in China than vice versa.

As far as throwing out the term depression - like we've never seen before.  That's one of my hot buttons.  Everyone likes to talk about how bad our current depression is and how its worse than the Great Depression.  A lot of you need to go talk to your great grandparents or grandparents and they'll clear that one up in a hurry. 

The term "good shape" is relative.  Exactly which country in the world do you think is in better shape than the U.S.?  Certainly not any of the major counties in Europe.  Their taxation rates are significantly higher than ours and so it their relative amount of debt.  Japan?  It is very common that young people can't afford to get married there because they can't afford anywhere to live.  Living with parents isn't an option because there isn't room for an extra person, let alone babies.

Of course we need to improve things.  So does everyone else.  The U.S. (and Canada) are in very good shape relatively speaking because we still have our basic strengths:
1.  We can still feed ourselves.
2.  Although higher than we like, unemployment is much lower than pretty much anywhere else.
3.  We still have lots of land and lots of undeveloped resources.  Contrary to public rantings, it is an intentional policy and a good thing we are using everyone else's oil up first.  See what it costs to buy fossil fuels in 20 years.  That's when we'll get serious about tapping into ours.
4.  We aren't overpopulated.
5.  Contrary to statistics various interest groups like to throw out, we are at least as highly educated as a whole (I think more educated - that's everyone sends people to college here).  The only jobs we send overseas are the ones we collectively don't want.  That's ok.

We have some hard decisions to make on some legacy financial programs.  It's not our politician's faults those decisions haven't been made.  It's OURS as a people.  Nothing else we do financially matters relative to our social security, medicare, and other entitlement programs.  The cost and issues of those programs dwarf everything else - here and in other countries.  Our country isn't any different than most of us individually - we don't have income problems - we have spending problems.  But its real hard to quit going to the store.  Its easy to tell someone else to stay home.

For some of your other points:

NYC retailers accept Euros the same reason those countries accept the $, to make it easier for people from other countries to spend money with you.  Do you think their bank statements are expressed in Euros?  In actuality, how many people from Europe are going to New York and paying cash for something.  They are using credit cards just like everyone else.

Do you not watch the news on the trouble various EU countries are having with their own currency?  The world certainly isn't switching to the yen. 

Hard assets?  Do you not realize how much hard assets U.S. companies and individuals own overseas?  That's a big part of the reason most of the poorer parts of the world hates us and Britain and the ones that don't hate us are jealous of us. 

Other countries want to invest in the U.S. corporations because we are a good investment.  For example, I am a partner in the oldest engineering company in Texas.  We literally get companies from around the world that try to buy us every month - and have for years.  It's not anything unique to my company - it happens to privately held companies all over the U.S.  Canadian companies routinely buy into the U.S. market.  On an even smaller scale, U.S. and British engineering companies have followed China around the world for decades to design and construct the infrastructure needed for China to buy resources.  No other country but us has the capability to exploit their needs.  And our companies make money by the dumptruck full off of China's insatiable basic needs for fuel, metal, and food.  Chinese labor may "make stuff", but they are buying the raw materials to do that from other countries, including the U.S. and Canada.
 

bryan6807

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Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
318
Location
Zeeland, MI
Chambero, you are an idiot, since the federal reserve came to be (private entity, not apart of gov't) the dollar has been devalued by more than 90%. real unemployment is well over 25% (depression was 25%) only difference is now more than half of americans receive some form of gov't assistance. everybody on here thinks things are good with corn over $7 and cattle over $1. this is all because of a weak dollar, the purchasing power of the dollar has declined, your property has not increased in value. There is a global elite taking us into a one world gov't (openly announced just look it up) and there goal is to have everyone dependent on gov't. I have sources i can email anyone directly if they want to see them. the world has lost faith in the dollar and is now resorting to gold and silver (smart). we are now in a fourth world war, the cold war does count (look up the term world war and by definition this would be the fourth) the wars are unconstitutional and they will have us all believe that asian, turban wearing boogeymen hate us (Al-Qaeda is CIA) they are staging false flag terror (vietnam, x-mas day bomber). also keep believing the fed is good for us when they print money when ever they need it, pass it out to all the wall street cronies, flip the U.S. tax payer the bill without telling us where the money went. this country has been seized by foreign offshore banks who are robbing us blind. keep taking your vaccines and letting the TSA grope you all in the name of freedom, I will keep my 3 G (god, gold, and guns) and i will also keep my liberty and freedom while the rest of you continue to be manipulated by the mainstream media and buy into the 2 party dictatorship. hope you all like living in east germany. 
 

GoWyo

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Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
1,691
Location
Wyoming
Any argument that starts off by calling the other person an idiot loses all its credibility.  Perhaps bryan6807 you would like to edit your comment?  Your approach is offensive.  Negative 1 karma point for you.  I have seen quite a few of chambero's posts and the word "idiot" has never come to mind even when I disagree with him.
 

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