knabe
Well-known member
This thread is farkworthy at this point.
County Show = Popularity Contest
- Thread starter green8911
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knabe
Well-known member
Just think, this couldmbe happening.
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2014/01/the-continued-eruptions-of-mount-sinabung/100660/
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2014/01/the-continued-eruptions-of-mount-sinabung/100660/
illinoisfarmmom
Member
I've thought about this topic a lot today as my kids worked in the barn on their heifer projects. green8911 - I would ask you to put yourself in my place for a moment:
1) my kids show heifers, so are not allowed to even sell in the "bonus" 4-H livestock auction. The fact that your son has the opportunity to make a little bonus money over market price is a pretty sweet deal.
2) Let's say my kids could sell, and they placed lower than your son's calf in the show, and when it came to sale time, your son's calf brought more money simply because he placed higher. I would be pretty disgusted with my buyers (the equipment dealer, the bank, the insurance agent, etc...) that we spent money with throughout the year...how dare they buy another kid's calf, simply because that calf placed higher??? Surely you don't expect someone else's Grandpa to buy your child's calf simply because he placed higher?
NEVER, EVER is a community-supported auction based on sale order...stop for just a moment and let this sink in.... A show's premium pay-out is based on show-ring success BUT the auction sale prices are based on particular businesses supporting customers, etc...
So think of me...I'm the Mom who's kids are helping set up for the auction so that your child can sell a steer...and they're doing it gladly
1) my kids show heifers, so are not allowed to even sell in the "bonus" 4-H livestock auction. The fact that your son has the opportunity to make a little bonus money over market price is a pretty sweet deal.
2) Let's say my kids could sell, and they placed lower than your son's calf in the show, and when it came to sale time, your son's calf brought more money simply because he placed higher. I would be pretty disgusted with my buyers (the equipment dealer, the bank, the insurance agent, etc...) that we spent money with throughout the year...how dare they buy another kid's calf, simply because that calf placed higher??? Surely you don't expect someone else's Grandpa to buy your child's calf simply because he placed higher?
NEVER, EVER is a community-supported auction based on sale order...stop for just a moment and let this sink in.... A show's premium pay-out is based on show-ring success BUT the auction sale prices are based on particular businesses supporting customers, etc...
So think of me...I'm the Mom who's kids are helping set up for the auction so that your child can sell a steer...and they're doing it gladly
Till-Hill
Well-known member
It has been happening as long as I have been showing cattle. We moved back to area and parents worked in town and besides steer we only had horses around my first few years of 4-H. Made friends with a dairy kid. He always won dairy show but they buy new JD equipment and build lots new buildings etc.....
Anyway I never won anything but my class but watching our sale my buddy's Holstein steer outsold the beef steers most years. I never got mad I knew then why. Nobody had an interest to pay the extra for my calf. Once I got more involved getting loans, selling some calves at sale barn and talking to another sale barn where me and that owner's kid Rodeoed together then I had 3-4 guys fighting for my calves.
Now 15 years later same thing happening with my sister in laws calves. In laws work in town but as they been getting older too and been around a few buyers have been willing to buy there calves.
Go out and TALK to + send a letter to business's even if not Ag related and get them involved.
Also 15 years later by buddy's family's Holstein calves are still topping sale.
Why, well because they spend alot of money in community! It's not hard to understand!
Anyway I never won anything but my class but watching our sale my buddy's Holstein steer outsold the beef steers most years. I never got mad I knew then why. Nobody had an interest to pay the extra for my calf. Once I got more involved getting loans, selling some calves at sale barn and talking to another sale barn where me and that owner's kid Rodeoed together then I had 3-4 guys fighting for my calves.
Now 15 years later same thing happening with my sister in laws calves. In laws work in town but as they been getting older too and been around a few buyers have been willing to buy there calves.
Go out and TALK to + send a letter to business's even if not Ag related and get them involved.
Also 15 years later by buddy's family's Holstein calves are still topping sale.
Why, well because they spend alot of money in community! It's not hard to understand!
green8911
Active member
I think I've properly worn out my welcome here. It's interesting how one person put it in a post earlier that this topic has brought out the worst of a lot of people on here. Bring up a post about politics, money, and kids and all of a sudden you find out who people really are. So just to clarify a few things:
- No, I don't expect that anyone owes my kid anything
- Yes, I realize that you can't be in this for the money
- Yes, I know that a kid has to "work" for it.
Again, to summarize. Look at your major shows. The higher the place, the higher the price. The higher the place, the more time, work and money that was probably put into those animals. Thus, you are teaching, or should be teaching, the harder you work, the bigger the reward. Isn't that the basis of biblical teachings as well? Not that if you were born with the right last name, mom and dad will take care of you and make you look good in front of the crowd no matter how you place. Enough said.
- No, I don't expect that anyone owes my kid anything
- Yes, I realize that you can't be in this for the money
- Yes, I know that a kid has to "work" for it.
Again, to summarize. Look at your major shows. The higher the place, the higher the price. The higher the place, the more time, work and money that was probably put into those animals. Thus, you are teaching, or should be teaching, the harder you work, the bigger the reward. Isn't that the basis of biblical teachings as well? Not that if you were born with the right last name, mom and dad will take care of you and make you look good in front of the crowd no matter how you place. Enough said.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
No.
Not at all.
Not by a long shot.
Start with the Book of Job and go from there.
Being ungrateful and complaining that you didn't get as may material rewards as others is actually a pretty direct contradiction of quite a few biblical teachings, not the least of which is the tenth commandment.
green8911
Active member
Jeff_Schroeder said:
That's a typical politician type comment. I'm not at all ungrateful. Not even close. My complaint is absolutely NOT the amount of money brought. I'm pretty darn sure, 99% sure in fact, that if you talk to people in any community across the state, you'll get an earful about county shows and politics. I'd challenge you and anyone else on here to go find a show where there isn't that. Show comittees make statements all the time about how they need to get participation up, participation is declining, get the kids involved, why can't we get more kids involved, why don't the parents get the kids involved, what can we do to get more involvement in ag............hear it all the time. Well, like it or not, this thread is THE #1 reason parents will not get their kids involved. No one who does not come from the affluent parts of their society wants to explain to their child that the reason little Johnny with the big last name who placed lower than them got more at an auction is because their family simply has more connections and is richer. True, and I agree, that is the reason. But by allowing that to happen at shows, you just lost the interest of ANY CHILD to want to ever do it again, mine included. I've been trying to explain that to mine since it happened. And yes, I know the book of Job, and you may want to finish that book to see how it finally ended up. Job didn't have mommy and daddy with the big bank accounts come bail him out.....................
knabe
Well-known member
Children understand more than you think.
This is all about you and being a judge, jury, and excecutioner, and your inability to take any input whatsoever, and its effect on you that it makes you even more calcified at taking suggestions and the only thing that is important to you is that you are right.
The only thing you are doing is digging a hole and demanding ropes at this point.
You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Thats the reason this thread is so long. No one really likes to see that and for the sake of your children, please stop.
This is all about you and being a judge, jury, and excecutioner, and your inability to take any input whatsoever, and its effect on you that it makes you even more calcified at taking suggestions and the only thing that is important to you is that you are right.
The only thing you are doing is digging a hole and demanding ropes at this point.
You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Thats the reason this thread is so long. No one really likes to see that and for the sake of your children, please stop.
green8911
Active member
Oh believe me, as an educator, I know all too well that kids catch on to a LOT more than people think. A whole lot more. And as a mom, any mother knows mom's instinct is pretty spot on most of the time. But I didn't realize you were in the room with us and understood my child better than me.............sure sounds like you do. 3 times I had to explain that to him yesterday without losing his complete interest. Funny how you COMPLETELY AVOIDED the challenge though. Everyone does. Go to the community, anywhere, and bring up the topic of politics and the county show. Go ahead. You'll see what happens. Thus, participation is down, will stay down, and jackpot shows have now become extremely popular and are replacing the county show participation everywhere. Think its just me? Had a kid stalled right next to us, low income like us, come back from the auction, kick over our feed bucket, and walk away. As we were loading up, his father came over to help me with ours and I asked where the boy was. Dad explained he walked home. He too agreed it was the last county show they'd go to. And yes, I seen the comment earlier about heifers and not even getting a chance at a sale. But you go into that knowing that. We had as many heifers as we did steers and they were all pretty happy with the overall show. I'm thinking that may be the way to go this next year, but still stay out of the county show arena. A lot of this political type stuff should be clearly explained by the ag teachers. Our ag teacher is 64 yrs old and a great man, but could care less about the program. At this point, he's looking at how to spend that pension check. Everyone take care and I do apologize for stirring up the pot. My point here was to get as much input as I could from various types of people and I definately did that. Best of luck to everyone and God Bless you all.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
I want to try to understand in these 5 pages what transpired as to how we went from asking question or venting to this forum is bunch of grumps and crabs?
When the thread started the issues was placement and sale price. Several folks offered suggestions on how to solicit buyers and potential increase your sales price. Do you know for sure that because Little Johnny got more with his last place animal because his name was little johnny or did his parent just buy a new peice of equipment from the implement dealer and use a bank loan to pay for part of it and use the local mill to feed their cattle and the fertilizer plant for crops? You have admitted you have been there a short time, so do you even know little Johnny?
Then we have politics must effect the show- well if that were true you wouldn't have won a thing and the kid with the name would have placed somewhere and the judge could have made an excuse to put him/her there because of "politics".
Then you shared you have only been in this county and community for a very short time and are disguisted that no one bid your animal higher. County shows and sales almost always are more personal. Sales at those sales are more personal. We kind beat that horse to death and then drug him around beat him again. No one knows you in the community so how would you expect them to react?
Most folks on this board are closely involved with a youth member in one way or another. I would expect that they can sympathize as we have previously seen and understand your situation. Can you not find any value in any of this thread to move past this and go forward? You can't compare your county fair to jackpot shows or even state shows. We've had kids show at our state fair come to our county and only make final drive and not win a thing. County shows are wild card.
Join another local county 4-H group
Write letters to buyers
Join in and participate in community
Participate in the sale
When the thread started the issues was placement and sale price. Several folks offered suggestions on how to solicit buyers and potential increase your sales price. Do you know for sure that because Little Johnny got more with his last place animal because his name was little johnny or did his parent just buy a new peice of equipment from the implement dealer and use a bank loan to pay for part of it and use the local mill to feed their cattle and the fertilizer plant for crops? You have admitted you have been there a short time, so do you even know little Johnny?
Then we have politics must effect the show- well if that were true you wouldn't have won a thing and the kid with the name would have placed somewhere and the judge could have made an excuse to put him/her there because of "politics".
Then you shared you have only been in this county and community for a very short time and are disguisted that no one bid your animal higher. County shows and sales almost always are more personal. Sales at those sales are more personal. We kind beat that horse to death and then drug him around beat him again. No one knows you in the community so how would you expect them to react?
Most folks on this board are closely involved with a youth member in one way or another. I would expect that they can sympathize as we have previously seen and understand your situation. Can you not find any value in any of this thread to move past this and go forward? You can't compare your county fair to jackpot shows or even state shows. We've had kids show at our state fair come to our county and only make final drive and not win a thing. County shows are wild card.
Join another local county 4-H group
Write letters to buyers
Join in and participate in community
Participate in the sale
knabe
Well-known member
I'm sort of with you on the county shows. Out here, one needs to be in 4h,ffa to participate. Thats why we dont do it, it was too much trouble. They are dying a slow death, and like most things that dont have competition, they are dying a slow death.
green8911
Active member
Little Johnny's (we'll leave names off), owns half the town here in SW Tx and was the high bidder on both the grand, reserve, and 3 of the lower placing cows, who, by the way belonged to people who works for him.
My reasoning for the post was simply to start a discussion on how other county shows worked and if this was the exception or the standard. That's it. All of a sudden people started taking offense to the fact that I said I won't allow my child to participate in this county show mess any further. I never ever said I wanted to pull him from the program. There are plenty of jackpots that go on the same weekend as county we can attend. My frustration is the fact that the board members publicize that they want to get participation up and ask for help in figuring out how to do so. When all along, this type of politics and financial resources are the top reasons families do not get involved. When you throw in a sale like what happened, you just slapped them in the face on the financial side as well. And yes, it is understood the kid has to get out there and solicit, but when the businesses they're soliciting are owned and operated predominantly by a group of people who also run the board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, do you really honestly think those no-name kids will get a fair shake....? Obviously, based on what happened at our show, that's not the case.
My reasoning for the post was simply to start a discussion on how other county shows worked and if this was the exception or the standard. That's it. All of a sudden people started taking offense to the fact that I said I won't allow my child to participate in this county show mess any further. I never ever said I wanted to pull him from the program. There are plenty of jackpots that go on the same weekend as county we can attend. My frustration is the fact that the board members publicize that they want to get participation up and ask for help in figuring out how to do so. When all along, this type of politics and financial resources are the top reasons families do not get involved. When you throw in a sale like what happened, you just slapped them in the face on the financial side as well. And yes, it is understood the kid has to get out there and solicit, but when the businesses they're soliciting are owned and operated predominantly by a group of people who also run the board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, do you really honestly think those no-name kids will get a fair shake....? Obviously, based on what happened at our show, that's not the case.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
knabe said:
Jackpot shows provide immediate gratification. You go in one day and out, place make some money move on to the next one. County show is a year long project for some kids and the county show is the culmination of that years work. I see it as people wanting immediate gratification. A few kids in our county do jackpot shows. But they are also the one's who excel in the county because they put so much time in. For Joe Blow - Cattle are an expensive 4-H project for kids to just get in to. When Kids can get some peeps and throw a few sacks of feed at chickens and walk with $500 ....kids ARE NOT stupid. They go where the money is.
green8911
Active member
knabe said:
Yes, this was our first county show here and it was eye opening. My fault completely for not asking around the community first to see how it was run in the past so I stepped right in it, no pun intended. We did quite a few jackpots, 9 all together around here and the south tx area and were very impressed with the way they are run for the most part. Good differing opinions by judges and we just took the common things we heard and worked on them. It's been tough not having my husband around to help but mom's making it work. We're sticking with the jackpots all the way to the majors from here on. It just really upsets me that it has to be that way. This is a local community thing and we'd love to just simply be treated fairly, no matter what our bank account balance is or how new our car is. Just really upsetting.
knabe
Well-known member
I hear you on the gratification thing.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
green8911 said:
so you answered sort of your own question
Little Johnny's family are finiancially important in that community and it looks as though they supported thier employees. Not sure what industry they are in but it doesn't seem all that unusal for them to buy/bid from their employees.
Placing in show does not always equal dollars. Two years ago group of buyers really liked the kid that won reserve. They got together and blew the doors out. More money than the grand champion. THe young lady that won grand didn't have a fit. She was happy for him as we all were. Same year low placing calf in our county got just as much as grand and reserve winners because she was going to college and solicited buyers. It was her last year.
Every county's different I guess. Its unfortunate your son worked so hard and did well in show and didn't make the money you expected. I guess at this point you know exactly what you have to do moving forward. You won't make anything at the jackpot show unless you win. But Good Luck with your decision. Lots of food for thought.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
I would have never thought so many on here condoned kickbacks.
Personally, I would like to see the sale prices coincide w/ the show results. Earnings based on performance seems like a pretty just outcome.
I think green8911 has to remember that the majority of folks that interact on this site are the well-known names; and even if they're not well-known, for the most part, they are the ones having a good amount of success in these auctions. This is why many respond w/ such defense. The change she proposes THREATENS their security.
Just like in our country right now- we have people petitioning for change; for more just modes of production. What we're seeing is the 'Haves', or in the case of these auction sales- those individuals receiving these kickbacks, making every attempt to PRESERVE the status quo: that which supports their personal self interest. What's right- what's just- what's most appropriate for the greater good for society/showman as a whole is given very little consideration.
Many on here are trying to construe her point. I don't think she is 'coveting' the other kids money. I think her position is one that is founded on principle. If the Grand Champion receives $10, the Reserve should (at a max) receive $9 --- Again, performance based earnings.
I'm sure there are many appropriate biblical quotes, but I think MLK summed it up best here: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Its my opinion, that those interested in fighting the good fight should strive to implement a system that ignores 'how it is' and reflects 'how it should be.'
green8911,
While it will be difficult to implement change here as those receiving these kickbacks- despite being the smallest population group- are the most powerful due to their resource$, it is not impossible. It will take some organization though. I feel there are many, many people whose principle outlook on this situation is in line w/ yours. The discontent w/ the current auction structure is likely widespread amongst the larger groups (those not receiving the big corporate kickbacks) and I think this factor will assist you when presenting change to them. Just remember, you are an ant- you will need an army.
Personally, I would like to see the sale prices coincide w/ the show results. Earnings based on performance seems like a pretty just outcome.
I think green8911 has to remember that the majority of folks that interact on this site are the well-known names; and even if they're not well-known, for the most part, they are the ones having a good amount of success in these auctions. This is why many respond w/ such defense. The change she proposes THREATENS their security.
Just like in our country right now- we have people petitioning for change; for more just modes of production. What we're seeing is the 'Haves', or in the case of these auction sales- those individuals receiving these kickbacks, making every attempt to PRESERVE the status quo: that which supports their personal self interest. What's right- what's just- what's most appropriate for the greater good for society/showman as a whole is given very little consideration.
Many on here are trying to construe her point. I don't think she is 'coveting' the other kids money. I think her position is one that is founded on principle. If the Grand Champion receives $10, the Reserve should (at a max) receive $9 --- Again, performance based earnings.
I'm sure there are many appropriate biblical quotes, but I think MLK summed it up best here: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Its my opinion, that those interested in fighting the good fight should strive to implement a system that ignores 'how it is' and reflects 'how it should be.'
green8911,
While it will be difficult to implement change here as those receiving these kickbacks- despite being the smallest population group- are the most powerful due to their resource$, it is not impossible. It will take some organization though. I feel there are many, many people whose principle outlook on this situation is in line w/ yours. The discontent w/ the current auction structure is likely widespread amongst the larger groups (those not receiving the big corporate kickbacks) and I think this factor will assist you when presenting change to them. Just remember, you are an ant- you will need an army.
knabe
Well-known member
so bidders should lower prices to customers as a way to give back so everybody gains equally rather than directing their money to an individual.
the continual problem with these "fairness" solutions is that people are not allowed to put their money where they want. that is the continual complaint and weakness of communism.
the "move forward" crowd would be proud.
if only carnivores were vegetarians. then the plants would complain.
the continual problem with these "fairness" solutions is that people are not allowed to put their money where they want. that is the continual complaint and weakness of communism.
the "move forward" crowd would be proud.
if only carnivores were vegetarians. then the plants would complain.
XBAR, why does it have to be the big evil corp and the wealthy farmer teaming up against the little guy? I grew up on a 60 cow dairy, we owned a few hundred acres and were middle class at best. Being farmers we took our corn/beans to the local mill, again small and family owned, we bought our seed from a small local company, we did our insurance business with a small local company, none of these people were rich and neither were 90 percent of the families in our county that showed hogs, pigs, or beef. Sale day was an amazing thing, hundreds of kids all waiting their turn to see how things would shake out, waiting your turn to be in front of that huge crowd of people, the auctioneer speaking a hundred miles an hour, the bid takers all yelling Yuuup! It was an amazing expeirence and when all was said and done we were happy and felt like we had accomplished something, another great year in the books. And yes, every year one of those companies that my father did business with bought my hogs as a way to say thank you for doing business with us, it wasn't a kick back or something dirty, unjust, or I like little Kevin because his daddy is rich or any crap like that, it was hey your a good kid and I apprieciate your families business, that's it. Why does everyone need to find a way to destroy everything innocent and good hearted? Yes I know sometimes things are shady but don't paint everyone with your corrupt and unfair brush, because a lot of the time its just kids having fun and to be honest I think the parents make it about money when it should just be about learning a decent work ethic, making friends, and having some fun.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
-XBAR- said:
We or should I say "I" am a no body. I just enjoy helping kids. At a county level the sale structures are compeltely diffferent. Each kid does the leg work before the show. I am proud of what we have done and we don't have a ton of wealth to do it. But the kids work hard.
We went to a premium sale in our county sale so we could increase buyers and spread the wealth among kids who weren't well known or hadn't done anything prior to the sale to solicit buyers. I do not believe in a floor being placed on cattle in a COUNTY fair simply due to placings. I know some kids that have limited resources and they do not place very well but they have a calf that is finished and they solicit the buyers and they get the bids. They didn't spend thousands on their calves but work their tales off and in the end they get a little money as a reward. So if we mandate bids based on placings, the kids who do spend $10-15,000 on a calf and do jackpots all year long will excel and will be given the money and it has nothing to do with how much the kid put into the project necessarily. Someone will loose. If you want to kill a county fair sale, mandating placement based sale bids will kill it quick.
I know some kids only show once that year at the county. They bought their calf from a feed lot and they finish put work time in and get a blue ribbon. But in the big show they may stand toward the bottom or last. That child would be punished because he does not have a cool room, fans and misting system or spent the money on quality genetics. You remove that childs one chance to make some $$$ on his/her hard work. Maybe our county sale is different than others. I like to see the kids who do the hard work get rewarded.
