Crossbreeding

[leanbeef]

four more 'color changers'...  note the red ears   BTW: check out page 6, 2nd paragraph of the pdf you sent me...  you were correct <rock>

there is one other colored cow in here- I think the middle picture...  She's an oddball-- first one like this.. will dilute down to a mouse, almost char diluted color in the summer- check her legs-- that's pretty close to her normal body color...  She's a tiny cow-- very high % jersey...

I've got about 100 pictures of all sorts of color combos.. don't think I have one of the white face though--  Might- have to double check...  I can email them if you'd like to check it out.

SEE?!!!...lol I was gonna say that what I've seen with the wild type gene seems to be black points on red cattle and/or reddish points on black cattle, but I've never been completely sure that was all the same gene at work. I think a lot of people just don't do the leg work it takes to research some of the things they observe. And even when you do, the evidence can be confusing and incomplete. I've just always been really interested in cattle colors and especially color patterns, I guess because we started raising Simmental when I was little and I liked the spotted calves. My first cow was a spotted heifer I liked that my dad gave me...it was DEFINITELY single trait selection at the most basic level! I got lucky, though...she turned out to be a really good cow! Now horse color genetics, on the other hand, make my head spin!

The little mouse colored cow looks like she might have some type of dilution, but it's not really the same. I think I remember something about a "fawn" color...or something that differentiates dark colored wild types from the lighter ones... You know how some jerseys are real dark, some are red and some a light fawn...and then you have the white ones like the Chis and several other breeds. That "white" is different from actual white...I think it's an absence of color, not the color white if that makes sense. Think of it as "clear" or no color...so it's white by default. I'm definitely not an expert on the wild gene, I've just read some about it and thought it was interesting in terms of how what I read helped me understand what I've seen before. Can't say I've seen them all or always understood everything I read. You on the other hand, seem to have a sample of pretty much every color/genetic combination possible right there!

Would love to see the pics...email whatever you want.

 

[kfacres]

four more 'color changers'...  note the red ears   BTW: check out page 6, 2nd paragraph of the pdf you sent me...  you were correct <rock>

there is one other colored cow in here- I think the middle picture...  She's an oddball-- first one like this.. will dilute down to a mouse, almost char diluted color in the summer- check her legs-- that's pretty close to her normal body color...  She's a tiny cow-- very high % jersey...

I've got about 100 pictures of all sorts of color combos.. don't think I have one of the white face though--  Might- have to double check...  I can email them if you'd like to check it out.

SEE?!!!...lol I was gonna say that what I've seen with the wild type gene seems to be black points on red cattle and/or reddish points on black cattle, but I've never been completely sure that was all the same gene at work. I think a lot of people just don't do the leg work it takes to research some of the things they observe. And even when you do, the evidence can be confusing and incomplete. I've just always been really interested in cattle colors and especially color patterns, I guess because we started raising Simmental when I was little and I liked the spotted calves. My first cow was a spotted heifer I liked that my dad gave me...it was DEFINITELY single trait selection at the most basic level! I got lucky, though...she turned out to be a really good cow! Now horse color genetics, on the other hand, make my head spin!

The little mouse colored cow looks like she might have some type of dilution, but it's not really the same. I think I remember something about a "fawn" color...or something that differentiates dark colored wild types from the lighter ones... You know how some jerseys are real dark, some are red and some a light fawn...and then you have the white ones like the Chis and several other breeds. That "white" is different from actual white...I think it's an absence of color, not the color white if that makes sense. Think of it as "clear" or no color...so it's white by default. I'm definitely not an expert on the wild gene, I've just read some about it and thought it was interesting in terms of how what I read helped me understand what I've seen before. Can't say I've seen them all or always understood everything I read. You on the other hand, seem to have a sample of pretty much every color/genetic combination possible right there!

Would love to see the pics...email whatever you want.

No= I agree she's not a true  but I do believe that it is some sort of dilutor...  It's odd to me, that she's the only one like that-- in nearly 20 years of mix and matching...  pics coming...

 

[leanbeef]

This applies to all breeds in one way or another but I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about how to crossbreed.  Pure on Pure for an F1?  Would you buy a halfblood bull of any combination? Why or why not?  Do you crossbreed now and if you don't why not?

Hey, Mill Iron...I think BS and I owe you an apology for highjacking your Crossbreeding thread and turning it into a discussion on color genetics! Sorry about that...

If you start a new discussion on crossbreeding, I'll try to stick to the topic, and we'll start our own thread about colors and markings!

 

[leanbeef]

wow this is awesome. I really like the discussion of consistency.  I've seen purebred breeders of any breed with the most inconsistent set of calves and then have them criticize people who crossbreed for inconcistency.  So do you think its worth raising crossbred bulls? In particular charolais red angus cross bulls?  Most other breeds have done it... not sure why we cant.

I wouldn't think of "crossbred bulls" and "composite bulls" in the same light exactly. Crossbreds to me are cattle that are made from crossing two parents of different breeds, taking advantage of heterosis for commercial purposes...whether that's making feeder calves, market steers, brood cows...whatever. Composites are cattle that have been genetically built using cattle from different breeds that still fit the same pattern for beef production, and they'll breed more "true" in a breeding situation. What I'm saying may sound like just a spin to some people, but I think there is a difference when you start talking about cattle to use in seed stock production. "Crossbred" cattle, when mated to each other, won't be as predictable or produce calves that are as uniform as "Composite" cattle SHOULD. I wouldn't start with cattle from unknown genetics and just start making crossbred bulls to sell for bulls because there seems to be a market for "crossbred" bulls. There IS a great market for composite bulls that use complimentary breeds to produce a marketable product, and I would advise anybody to look at a bull like that if he fits your breeding scenario.

Basically, if you're cow herd is primarily purebred, then you might see more progress in using a purebred bull of a complimentary breed. If your cows are crossed up and have several different breeds, I would probably still advise a purebred bull that might help make the calves GENETICALLY more uniform. If your cows are basically 1/2 British and 1/2 continental, regardless of the breeds present, then that herd to me is a good place for a composite bull to keep the balance between British and continental blood.

 

[flacowman]

My Beef Repro professor always said that hybrid vigor is at its peak on the second cross, ie simagus F1 x charolais bull gives you your best calf possible.  His formula was AB+C=Zsquared, meaning that the progeny from the second cross will be the best you'll ever get.

 

[kfacres]

My Beef Repro professor always said that hybrid vigor is at its peak on the second cross, ie simagus F1 x charolais bull gives you your best calf possible.  His formula was AB+C=Zsquared, meaning that the progeny from the second cross will be the best you'll ever get.

but what if you continue crossing?

Something like AB+C=Zsq +D= Zsq times 2

 

[flacowman]

according to him at that point you just get too mongrel and receive diminishing returns.  Our herd at the university definitely seems to support his hypothesis

 

[RyanChandler]

The difference in a composite is that they should be stabalized at certain %.  With a crossbreds, they're not- which is the culprit for the inconsistencies.

 

[kfacres]

according to him at that point you just get too mongrel and receive diminishing returns.  Our herd at the university definitely seems to support his hypothesis

mongrel I agree with--  I don't know about dimishing returns though... 

What if you would take that cross-- and back mate them to breed A?  Sure you'll loose a tad HV-- but it should help with consistancy and still add some HV.

 

[Till-Hill]

Jody since you were talking about dairy cows I will just use our example here what we do and you tell me if it's wrong or not. I have F1's either Swiss or Jersey x Holsteins. On them I use NR, AY or MS, and on that resulting calf I have been using RW HO or a couple F1 HO/JE bulls. I always try to use the breed the farthest back.  What do you think? Also I have a problem with meat bags on the JE sired x  BS x HO cross. Love the NR x JE x HO cows. 900 lbs at the most and milk and breed back, very good health trait cows. Lost a little bit on the Fat and Protein and them tho. And just FYI I hate the Montebelaired's or how ever you spell it. To big, wildern heck, and find out how their udders are but I doubt anygood. I'm sticking with the major dairy breed's except for the Norweigan Reds.

On beef cows I am using unrelated F1 x unrelated F1.  Ex Sim Angus x Herf Char or like in the dairy cows on that 3rd cross always using farthest back breed or sometimes just going back with an F1 bull on them. I really like the calves and they weigh up and sell good. Finding bulls is hardest part but if I can't find something I like them F1's make great clubby momma's or use a Sim Angus on Sim Angus and keep that cross alive.

 

[kfacres]

Jody since you were talking about dairy cows I will just use our example here what we do and you tell me if it's wrong or not. I have F1's either Swiss or Jersey x Holsteins. On them I use NR, AY or MS, and on that resulting calf I have been using RW HO or a couple F1 HO/JE bulls. I always try to use the breed the farthest back.  What do you think? Also I have a problem with meat bags on the JE sired x  BS x HO cross. Love the NR x JE x HO cows. 900 lbs at the most and milk and breed back, very good health trait cows. Lost a little bit on the Fat and Protein and them tho. And just FYI I hate the Montebelaired's or how ever you spell it. To big, wildern heck, and find out how their udders are but I doubt anygood. I'm sticking with the major dairy breed's except for the Norweigan Reds.

of the off breeds- we've only used Swedish and Norweigan Reds.  Personally, I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing-- that's max the HV effect.  I have to agree though- pretty much our whole herd is 900 lbs- fertile- breed back- milk dang neared as good as a better than average Hol--- but we've been able to keep the b.f. in there--- it's that premium that pays the bills.. over the years, of b.f. has ranged from 3.5- 4.3 .  we're down on it right now-- but most of the 2 and 3 y.o.s are out of the MS bull...  Personally, we didn't have much luck with the Guern.. seemed to be wimpy cows- always getting sick- and getting shoved out of the bunk- speaking of which-- those jersey cows are fighters- both at the bunk- and in the parlor.. kick like a devil first freshening.  IMO- anything on Hol cows will do better- due to AI and ET that whole breed is screwed up-- and they can't even go overseas to buy an outcross- of any quality. 

Just last week- I had an ABS rep pushing two NR bulls for use on heifers- said they'd be a 2 or 3 on the Hols calving ease scale...

 

[Till-Hill]

Yes the NR bulls are great calving ease. Had 50-60 calves mainly out of hfrs. Don't know if I have ever pulled one. Granted most of them were out of JE influenced females but still they come out tough! I like the 252nr5575 and the 252nr5870 bulls the best. Red and polled

 

[Mill Iron A]

We run crossbred cattle red angus/charolais, and have been keeping our own bulls since the 60's when we started AIing.  We retain ownership and sell on the grid and have been able to track sires and dams data from birth to slaughter.  The "crossbred?" bulls 1/2 red angus 1/2 char or 3/4 red angus 1/4 char or 3/4 char and 1/4 angus cleanup bulls have always outdone the A.I. sires.  They have the best Yield and Quality grade combination and their progeny seem to perform the best in a range situation.  Recently "this last year" I felt as if there wasn't a big enough contemporary group to find the best home raised bull in so we have bought a couple of outside bulls.  The $2000 dollar bulls are so worthless that I don't think anybody can actually afford them due to loss of production but can we really afford to keep buying $5000 plus bulls?  I am very close friends with a red angus breeder and Ive thrown around a couple of ideas to him but I think I might start raising some 1b red angus to sell in their sale.  We have peidgrees, performance data, and a seemingly closed herd to go with.  The cattle are much more uniform than most straight bred herds because we mate them in the chute for frame, height, carcass data, and I'll evaluate phenotype as well.  To acheive uniformity in crossbreeding the key for me is mating like kinds of cattle.  Full sibs only have a .25 correlation so if their mom was a midget and their dad was a tall racy houndgutted continental then the resulting offspring will be a mess of shapes and sizes.  However, take a fr. 5-6 cow and use a bull that is just a little lower or higher to achieve a goal height of 5.5 to 6 thats a start.  Then capitalize on the marbling from the british side and the ribeye from the charolais side.  However, I think they should have similar performance data.  True I won't use a charolais on heifers so I don't really care about performance their but in the cows I like 85-90 lb calves and 1300-1400 lb slaughter weights with healthy adg in between.  Most people rely soley on the charolais side for the performance but I think that adds to inconsistency.  I need more muscle from the charolais and good rib shape but I will leave the depth up to the red angus.  I don't like the idea of a "terminal" bull because somebody had to have raised him in the first place. 

 

[kfacres]

The "crossbred?" bulls 1/2 red angus 1/2 char or 3/4 red angus 1/4 char or 3/4 char and 1/4 angus cleanup bulls have always outdone the A.I. sires.  
 Most often when people think of AI Bulls-- they think SUPERIOR-- not the case.. that bull is just someone else's herd bull-- and they did a great job of promotion on him... More times than not- people's herd sires are better-- but it's forever hard to make them believe this...  I think it's an age old problem that stems to the days of AI's beginning-- but now anyone can collect and promote a bull.

They have the best Yield and Quality grade combination and their progeny seem to perform the best in a range situation.  Recently "this last year" I felt as if there wasn't a big enough contemporary group to find the best home raised bull in so we have bought a couple of outside bulls.  The $2000 dollar bulls are so worthless that I don't think anybody can actually afford them due to loss of production but can we really afford to keep buying $5000 plus bulls?

DUH (to the cheap bulls not being able to perform- but the small to average guy can't aford expensive bulls)--  the cattle in your environment- are adapted- the others are not.  I've never had much success with purchased animals brought onto the place.  They just don't 'adapt'.  

 

[JTM]

Right now, if I had the abililty, which I will be striving for something similar.

This is what I would do: I would have a large cow herd consisting of F1 Shorthorn x Black Angus. I would then use a purebred Shorthorn bull on half of them and a Purebred Angus bull on half of them. Giving me 3/4 shorthorn and Black angus offspring. This would be good for consistency, hybrid vigor, and the cows would have excellent maternal performance compared to purebred cows. I would market these calves for replacement heifers. The next step would be to use a PB Charolais or Maine Anjou bull for terminal cross. I think this is a better route to take rather than getting a crossbred bull and putting them on purebred cows.

 

[sue]

Very good post Mill Iron . Love the buckskin deal... why change it? You sell on the grid... what more can  you do?

Someone posted  Shorthorn X angus cross is older then dirt and I have to agree.

  I just finished a spread sheet that included both pb shorthorn and 3/4 sh x 1/4 ra bulls... the f1 mamas averaged under 340 day calving interval. they also ave fewer pounds at birth and more lbs at weaning??  Dont get me wrong some of the pb shorthorn cows at ages of 9 to 11 still were under 350 days . Really a great program.  If I was setting in a commerical herd program that was dominated by Angus or sim angus genetics . And you  have lost some fleshing ability/ fertility.... ? Well ....  this group of bulls ultrasound March 2 . The females were raisied w/o creep feeders and so were the grand dams and great grand dams..... 10 bulls average 78 bulls, 696 lbs at weaning . Both PB shorthorns and 3/4 sh x ra sell...  One sire group . PM me for details.  10 yrlings and 2 virgin bulls... no games the price is the price Offered march 22nd.
;D 8)

 

[McM93]

I like both the F1s AND the SimAngus made from two SimAngus parents. The one thing about using crossbred cows and "composite" bulls is that you take advantage of hybrid vigor in the cow herd as well as the calf crop. Using two purebred parents of different breeds gives you a big burst in that calf crop, but you lose out on any benefits that crossbred cows bring to the table.

My dad and grandpa started with a herd of commercial cows and bred up to a purebred, registered Simmental. After 20 years of working toward that, the bottom fell out of the cattle market in 1994 and cattle weren't worth anything, especially Simmental! Everything I heard in regards to beef production around that time was about how the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross was the ideal feeder calf...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal market steer...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal brood cow...It occurred to me the only thing missing from a breeding program where the ideal brood cow could raise the ideal feeder calf which would grow into the ideal market steer, was the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental herb bull! So I started AIing some of our purebred black Simmie cows to some top Angus bulls. That was over 12 years ago. Simmental have made a complete turn around in terms of what that breed even IS, and the SimAngus have helped because people realize the magic that happens when you cross those two breeds. The same thing happens with Simmental and Hereford or Shorthorn...they're the best brood cow you can make. And I like Simmental because they have the grow and performance of the continental breeds with more milk and better dispositions than a lot of them that I've ever been around. There are good and bad ones in every breed, but generally speaking, Simmental x any British breed = super mama cows.

I totally agree, the Simmental breed started making data driven decisions...I agree that hard times tend to clear our thinking... (clapping)

 

[leanbeef]

I like both the F1s AND the SimAngus made from two SimAngus parents. The one thing about using crossbred cows and "composite" bulls is that you take advantage of hybrid vigor in the cow herd as well as the calf crop. Using two purebred parents of different breeds gives you a big burst in that calf crop, but you lose out on any benefits that crossbred cows bring to the table.

My dad and grandpa started with a herd of commercial cows and bred up to a purebred, registered Simmental. After 20 years of working toward that, the bottom fell out of the cattle market in 1994 and cattle weren't worth anything, especially Simmental! Everything I heard in regards to beef production around that time was about how the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross was the ideal feeder calf...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal market steer...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal brood cow...It occurred to me the only thing missing from a breeding program where the ideal brood cow could raise the ideal feeder calf which would grow into the ideal market steer, was the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental herb bull! So I started AIing some of our purebred black Simmie cows to some top Angus bulls. That was over 12 years ago. Simmental have made a complete turn around in terms of what that breed even IS, and the SimAngus have helped because people realize the magic that happens when you cross those two breeds. The same thing happens with Simmental and Hereford or Shorthorn...they're the best brood cow you can make. And I like Simmental because they have the grow and performance of the continental breeds with more milk and better dispositions than a lot of them that I've ever been around. There are good and bad ones in every breed, but generally speaking, Simmental x any British breed = super mama cows.

I totally agree, the Simmental breed started making data driven decisions...I agree that hard times tend to clear our thinking... (clapping)

There's no doubt in my mind that Simmental were on the fast train OUT back in the '90s. If we hadn't been willing to look at WHY, most of our breeders would be gone and the rest would still have an inferior product they'd be trading among themselves. I'm glad we were able to see the negatives and swallow that pill...it not only kept us alive, but it made the cattle SO much better than they ever were before. This isn't the same breed of cattle we were raising 10-15 years ago...

 

[RyanChandler]

Right now, if I had the abililty, which I will be striving for something similar.

This is what I would do: I would have a large cow herd consisting of F1 Shorthorn x Black Angus. I would then use a purebred Shorthorn bull on half of them and a Purebred Angus bull on half of them. Giving me 3/4 shorthorn and Black angus offspring. This would be good for consistency, hybrid vigor, and the cows would have excellent maternal performance compared to purebred cows. I would market these calves for replacement heifers. The next step would be to use a PB Charolais or Maine Anjou bull for terminal cross. I think this is a better route to take rather than getting a crossbred bull and putting them on purebred cows.

The F1 female is FAR more marketable and desireable. Your planned 2nd cross to create the 3/4 results in breed regression, reduced consistency, decreased hybrid vigor, and less maternal performance than you had at the 1st cross. In a managed operation, the 3rd cross is always termina.  Hyrbrid vigor is maximized at the 3rd cross.This is science. We know this.  I completely agree with you that the PB Char is the terminal choice over the F1 british cow. I don't think the Maine is a good suit for the shorthorn x angus f1 either. The FB MAINE  are similar in (geno)type to the shorthorns and the pbs are very similar in type to the angus both in pheotype and Id argue in genotype as well. 

 

[JTM]

Right now, if I had the abililty, which I will be striving for something similar.

This is what I would do: I would have a large cow herd consisting of F1 Shorthorn x Black Angus. I would then use a purebred Shorthorn bull on half of them and a Purebred Angus bull on half of them. Giving me 3/4 shorthorn and Black angus offspring. This would be good for consistency, hybrid vigor, and the cows would have excellent maternal performance compared to purebred cows. I would market these calves for replacement heifers. The next step would be to use a PB Charolais or Maine Anjou bull for terminal cross. I think this is a better route to take rather than getting a crossbred bull and putting them on purebred cows.

The F1 female is FAR more marketable and desireable. Your planned 2nd cross to create the 3/4 results in breed regression, reduced consistency, decreased hybrid vigor, and less maternal performance than you had at the 1st cross. In a managed operation, the 3rd cross is always termina.  Hyrbrid vigor is maximized at the 3rd cross.This is science. We know this.  I completely agree with you that the PB Char is the terminal choice over the F1 british cow. I don't think the Maine is a good suit for the shorthorn x angus f1 either. The FB MAINE  are similar in (geno)type to the shorthorns and the pbs are very similar in type to the angus both in pheotype and Id argue in genotype as well. 

Yes you are correct on the science. My thinking is that the 3/4 blood british replacements would be more marketable for commercial and seedstock operations. Not sure if it would hold true or not.