Do you flush heifers?

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red

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This is from another thread talking about ET calves & flushing.
I guess I've never understood why people flush a heifer. I'd want her to prove to me she can do the job.
Does anyone flush heifers? If so why?
I understand less when someone buys a flush from a heifer at a sale but you see several being sold.

Red
 

Showcalves

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In a word, NO.

We, too, like to see them prove themselves a bit first.  So far we've not flushed anything until she's had 2 calves.  That's just us though.

Melinda
 

Show Heifer

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No, in fact, I have a habit of flushing menopausal cows!!!!  Of course the angus assoc would dissagree that an angus cow could still be productive after age 9. Wonder what kind of cow THEY have???????

But, (and this might stir a pot) I have a feeling some heifers are being flushed for one of two reasons, one they are so FAT from the show ring that they either won't get bred and stay bred, or the owner is worried her udder is completely full of fat and she won't milk. The other reason is that she is too unstructurally sound and that she won't live long enough to have a calf, let alone bear the weight of a 8-9 month term calf.

What bull would you flush a heifer to? I would like to flush a PROVEN mating...not just on that IN THEORY would work, or have worked on similair bloodlines. So, if your flushing a heifer, it is all unknown. That would kinda scare me!
 

afhm

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Depends on the situation, i.e. short on grass and need to liquidate, injury, offered alot of $$$$$ for a flush/eggs, having to sell due to a partnership, etc....
 

garybob

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Maybe this practice of flushing successful showheifers to the current or recent National Champ bull, is what has gotten the Shorthorn breed in so much trouble.
 

the angus111

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cathy, yes i do and wont hesitate.the AAA has made EPDS the focal point of the breed, if i have a heifer with big epds,i will mate to a sire with higher or equal epds,as long as that BW is below 3.this will spark debate.but it markets cattle.flushing heifers is no worse than using clubby sires,not all ,with no predictability.if there fat they wont flush well, much less calve out.so that fat heifer theory is shot.if i have a cow that is injured so it cant calve,i will flush.we flush twice ,have a calf and start all over.jmo rusty
 

OH Breeder

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As the devil's advocate Angus111, I have one in the barn that on paper should be out of this world. The EPD"S are amazing, but if you saw this calf, you wouldn't buy him. U G L Y. THe poorest looking thing you ever want to see. SO, my point, EPD"S are always a real world repersentation of what the cow looks like. I am not sure I understand flushing a heifer based on EPD's.
JMO.
 

the angus111

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OH Breeder,live evaluation is of course the most important,however in the AAA ,they put so much emphasis on EPDS,IMO some breeders will look right past a good female to obtain the higher epds of a lesser female.if a heifer has interim epds that are high,i will flush her to a sire of equal or higher epds and the progeny of that mating will have equal or higher interim epds.if i have a heifer that has what you want your calves to have and mate to a desired sire,why not?rusty
 

OH Breeder

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As quoted from TJ in another post.....15 years ago, I would have agreed with you, but all people seem to want to do with EPD's are to pick the highest numbers (opposite for BW).   IMHO, Higher YW will often = larger frame scores which will = higher feed costs which will = less profit for the commercial guy in the long run.
To each their own. My evaluation is does she calve without assistances, does she cover with minimal pasture/grain, does she milk well, is she easy to handle, does she breed back readily without problems, does she have the desired traits/appearance that is marketable she sound on her feet and legs, no structural defects. Many of these traits can not be evaulated in a heifer.
 

the angus111

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showcattle gal,I flush at most twice and then let the heifer have a calf and flush if i choose again.DL and Terry if he is around can give you their opinions.I knock on wood and lately it has been needed alot have never ruined a heifer flushing her.But never have i flushed one more than twice.rusty
 

the angus111

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OH Breeder, I agree with your donor qualities,right on.And the epds are supposed to be just a tool,not the deciding factors.but....Rusty
 

OH Breeder

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I did hear a breeder say this once...." I like to use heifers as recieps becaue they are more receptive..." I am not sure that I agree with that one, but, as with anything else just because its different doesn't mean its wrong. Not trying to change the subject but they kind of go together, the productive abilities of unproven females.
 

red

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I know our ET guy likes to use heifers over older cows as recips. Juest feels he gets better response from them. I'd be very careful though on what embryo I put into a heifer.

Red
 

justintime

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I have never flushed a heifer, and probably won't as I just prefer to have some knowledge of their productivity prior to doing the flush. I  may consider it if it was a very exceptional heifer that became injured, but I prefer not too. That is not to say, that virgin flushes cannot be successful. I know of many that have proven very successful with no visible adverse effects to the heifer. I just don't prefer to do it.( and that is not based on any science etc).I have heard so some heifers that have had trouble breeding aftr being flushed and I have heard the same on some cows. I doubt if this is much of an issue today, as the science being developed today in the field of ET is amazing. There are new drugs, new technics, new protocols coming down the pipe every few days. One of the vets who does my ET is from Argentina. He has brought some things with him that I have never heard about. Another vet I use, just arrived from Romania 5 years ago, and he has done nothing but ET for more than 20 years. He also brought some new ideas.
There are new drugs presently being tested that will revolutionize ET again, if they prove to be as successful as the early research indicates. I think we will see many new techniques brought into the industry in the next 5 years.
I am not saying that all new things are good, but I think we need to be more open minded now to new techniques and new ideas and be willing to accept the good ones, reject the bad.
I know many people who use heifers for recips. Again, I prefer cows that have calved at least once. If I can choose, I like to use cows that are not still trying to grow themselves so that they can put all their efforts into raising the ET baby.I usually use cows that have calved at least twice and have even used an occasional cow that is 10+ providing their udder is good and they still can stay in condition.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I have only flushed 1 heifer. I had bred and owned 4 gerations on her maternal side and 2 on her paternal side. Did I sell the embryos? Absolutely not! My belief is that anything that I sell represents me and my breeding program directly. I wouldn't sell "blue sky and a promise" to anyone just because I thought it should work. The school of hard knocks has taught me that not all of my breeding "theories" pan out.
 

justintime

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As for heifers being more receptive, I am not sure what they mean by that. I assume they mean that they get a higher number of heifers that can have an embryos implanted in them. I have never had any issues with using cows, in that regard. I just looked back at my records for the embryos that we implanted this spring. So far 38 embryos have been implanted out of 42 potential recips. Of the cows that did not respond correctly, 3 of these were younger cows that had only calved for 6 weeks, and 1 did not have a good CL. . I got greedy and tried to use these when my past experience showed the same results. It may be different if these recips were out on good grass, but these were done in April before our grass was going good. They were on good winter feed, but I find there is nothing as good as grass to flush a female before breeding. Over the years, cows have not gave me many issues and I usually only have 1 or 2 out of 15 or 20 that my vet does not want to use... and he is usually pretty picky.
 

shorthorns r us

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what about that heifer calf that wins KC, Louisville, and Denver. would you flush her? what if sullivan, or funk, or griswold are swinging their giant checkbook at you, do you flush her then?
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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SRU said:
what about that heifer calf that wins KC, Louisville, and Denver. would you flush her? what if sullivan, or funk, or griswold are swinging their giant checkbook at you, do you flush her then?

SRU - Good to see you back on, Hope everything is going well. The old saying "money talks and BS walks" tempts alot of people and I guess I have never been offered 4 or 5 digit figures for a flush from a heifer. I have turned down a near 4 digit offer for one though for two reasons - 1) If she is that good, a year from now after she has calved and I have a better idea of what she will produce, the same flush will still be easily marketable. Maybe not for the big money that was offered but still marketable. 2) I look at my heifers as my genetic lead time, and I'm kind of greedy when it comes to that commodity.
 

DL

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Good topic - to answer the question- NO I would not flush a heifer.

No I probably wouldn't flush an injured heifer either - I would have to weigh the genetic value vs the potential pain and suffering prolonging her life and flushing her might cause - I have seen people do some pretty horrible things in the name of genetics.

I only flush cows that have had calves by the sire I want to flush with - that way since I know my cows I have a pretty good idea of what I will get.

Recips - I use only my own cows - my herd is closed and why would I want somebody else's diseases? I also use proven cows - often older - a smart man once told me 2 things re embryos (1) why put a diamond in the garbage (re people putting embryos in cull dairy cattle) and (2) use your better cows for your ET recips

Heifers as recips? NO except I have a PHA carrier heifer who has an egg - it is either that or burger - I think the egg is the better option. I might just have a great recip cow.

Flush a ch heifer is some dude showed up with tons of money? NO WAY IN HELL!  The dudes with the tons of money are not the people I wan tot do business with, although I have been frequently told that there is a price for everything (usually after I refuse to sell something) - this isn't how I do business.

garybob- you could be right

JIT - we often seem to agree - except on hockey! The Stanley Cup was in East Lansing last week - it drew a big crowd!

A3 - welcome back to the "dark side" we always miss you - and VJ we know you are out there too  ;D

RW - seems you and I are on the same track most time too - who is your favorite hockey team?

 
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