Durhams for Denver

[blackdiamond]

whats wrong with white or roan calves

they look like shorthorns...and commercial people using shorthorns want red-- so they can 'mask' the identity and parentage of their calves- by using black bulls and getting black calves... so they don't take a hit at market...

 

[garybob]

Last year I walked through the jungles pen, I thought he was known as a functional breeder of bulls. I have to be honest,what I seen floored me. A bunch of small framed clubby looking yearlings with absolutely no performance. When your fat as a tick and struggling to have a 1000lbs yearling weight u have a problem. They looked like a club calf breeders pen. Then there was a group of fall bulls that had no muscle and carried  a ton of fat. Nothing against u shorty guys but I  couldnt  see any commercial good in that set of bulls. What exactly do the shorthorn breeders think works on all the angus cross females in the country side ?

Um.....not to stir the pot, but, that black,polled, blazefeaced Simmental bull in your avatar sure as hell isn't going to sire any 850-lb weaning weights, either, is he? He's almost a thousand pounds lighter and four frame-scores shorter at the hip than many of his ancestors (who were dilluter and pattern-carriers)......Y'un's are all way better Cattlemen and CowBelles than a Hillbilly like me, but,I refuse to think of it this way.
If monster growth and performance are so great, then, break out your ampules of all the old Pie-Rouge, Montbelliarde, and Abondance bulls, and breed the offspring to Fleckvieh bulls.
Until then, don't poke fun at someone who is trying to get bulls out there that tone-down a bunch of 1700-lb cows. That's EXACTLY what Simmental and Limousin and Gelbvieh breeders did when they started their composite registries.l

GB

 

[garybob]

Seriously.........Y'un's want to point out the reality of black Simmental-Composite bulls will sire CAB carcasses when mated to commercial Angus cows, yet refuse to start marketing Filet-O-Fleckvieh as a valid alternative for North-American Consumers in the Supermarket.
While you're at it, how's Laura's Lean competing against marbling and tenderness, these days?

GB

 

[JTM]

But if you're selecting for functional characteristics, 21 has to be at the top of your list.

It is hard to look past this bull but I just felt he seemed a little too extreme and from the picture would question whether he is too fat or would hold up carrying that much weight on that frame. If I was in Denver he would be one of the bulls I would want to see walk around for sure! It's one of those catalogs that you just need to see the cattle for yourself in order to get a feel for what is there. They all just look really good and consistently so. It would be a lot of fun to take about 8 hours studying and analyzing these bulls and coming up with a strategy to get one...

 

[scotland]

look at lot 4 to take home  to ohio!

 

[scotland]

Last year I walked through the jungles pen, I thought he was known as a functional breeder of bulls. I have to be honest,what I seen floored me. A bunch of small framed clubby looking yearlings with absolutely no performance. When your fat as a tick and struggling to have a 1000lbs yearling weight u have a problem. They looked like a club calf breeders pen. Then there was a group of fall bulls that had no muscle and carried  a ton of fat. Nothing against u shorty guys but I  couldnt  see any commercial good in that set of bulls. What exactly do the shorthorn breeders think works on all the angus cross females in the country side ?

Husker you in Denver this year, grab the scan information on the these bulls and you will see they wil lcompete with any breed... muscle function, doability.. see you there, Shorthorn pen show is Saturday 11am Jan 19

 

[RyanChandler]

But if you're selecting for functional characteristics, 21 has to be at the top of your list.

It is hard to look past this bull but I just felt he seemed a little too extreme and from the picture would question whether he is too fat or would hold up carrying that much weight on that frame. If I was in Denver he would be one of the bulls I would want to see walk around for sure! It's one of those catalogs that you just need to see the cattle for yourself in order to get a feel for what is there. They all just look really good and consistently so. It would be a lot of fun to take about 8 hours studying and analyzing these bulls and coming up with a strategy to get one...

What do you mean by extreme?  As far as him being so fat, this is a huge plus for me..  These bulls have been on the same ration as each other( I assume) and you see how much more weight 21 carries than the rest.  He is the easiest fleshing bull in the group.  Obviously in the pasture he wouldn't be that fat but I wouldn't expect him to lose weight on pasture any quicker than the other bulls.  He's proved his efficiency by the amount of weight he carries/has gained on the same ration as the others and he looks extremely useful to me.  I did watch him in the video and he has much more sheath than I'd prefer.  I have a Bonanza son and he is the same way.  JDMC has another solid red Bonanza son as lot 1 in their sale that is a stud too.  Would love to have the cash to buy em both! I agree, pics and videos only go so far. Needa be there in person to get the best feel.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Last year I walked through the jungles pen, I thought he was known as a functional breeder of bulls. I have to be honest,what I seen floored me. A bunch of small framed clubby looking yearlings with absolutely no performance. When your fat as a tick and struggling to have a 1000lbs yearling weight u have a problem. They looked like a club calf breeders pen. Then there was a group of fall bulls that had no muscle and carried  a ton of fat. Nothing against u shorty guys but I  couldnt  see any commercial good in that set of bulls. What exactly do the shorthorn breeders think works on all the angus cross females in the country side ?

Um.....not to stir the pot, but, that black,polled, blazefeaced Simmental bull in your avatar sure as hell isn't going to sire any 850-lb weaning weights, either, is he? He's almost a thousand pounds lighter and four frame-scores shorter at the hip than many of his ancestors (who were dilluter and pattern-carriers)......Y'un's are all way better Cattlemen and CowBelles than a Hillbilly like me, but,I refuse to think of it this way.
If monster growth and performance are so great, then, break out your ampules of all the old Pie-Rouge, Montbelliarde, and Abondance bulls, and breed the offspring to Fleckvieh bulls.
Until then, don't poke fun at someone who is trying to get bulls out there that tone-down a bunch of 1700-lb cows. That's EXACTLY what Simmental and Limousin and Gelbvieh breeders did when they started their composite registries.l

GB

You are exactly right. Again. NO comments to dispute this?

 

[GONEWEST]

Last year I walked through the jungles pen, I thought he was known as a functional breeder of bulls. I have to be honest,what I seen floored me. A bunch of small framed clubby looking yearlings with absolutely no performance. When your fat as a tick and struggling to have a 1000lbs yearling weight u have a problem. They looked like a club calf breeders pen. Then there was a group of fall bulls that had no muscle and carried  a ton of fat. Nothing against u shorty guys but I  couldnt  see any commercial good in that set of bulls. What exactly do the shorthorn breeders think works on all the angus cross females in the country side ?

Um.....not to stir the pot, but, that black,polled, blazefeaced Simmental bull in your avatar sure as hell isn't going to sire any 850-lb weaning weights, either, is he? He's almost a thousand pounds lighter and four frame-scores shorter at the hip than many of his ancestors (who were dilluter and pattern-carriers)......Y'un's are all way better Cattlemen and CowBelles than a Hillbilly like me, but,I refuse to think of it this way.
If monster growth and performance are so great, then, break out your ampules of all the old Pie-Rouge, Montbelliarde, and Abondance bulls, and breed the offspring to Fleckvieh bulls.
Until then, don't poke fun at someone who is trying to get bulls out there that tone-down a bunch of 1700-lb cows. That's EXACTLY what Simmental and Limousin and Gelbvieh breeders did when they started their composite registries.l

GB

Again, not to stir the pot, but since Scott has been in hiding since the two whippings his football team took and evidently is not here to defend himself, that "black, blazed faced Simmental bull in your avatar" has sure as hell sired more than his fair share of 850 pound bull calves at 205 days. Not only that but he is in the top 5% of the breed for Calving ease EPD and is a very good choice to breed heifers to. Scott runs a very successful bull sale each year that features the progeny of this bull and marketed primarily to commercial cattlemen who just from looking at the sale report seemed to have paid about $6,000 average for his sons. In your spare time, see if you can find a shorthorn bull who's progeny are marketed to commercial cattlemen and average $6000 a head. And I know this is going to blow your mind, but this bull that is so acceptable to commercial cattlemen was a........................wait for it..........................NATIONAL CHAMPION!!! Imagine that!!! And  he might be a thousand pounds lighter than some of the shorthorn bulls of the 80's but I never saw many 3500 pound Simmental bulls. And the fact that at 4 frame scores shorter he still has the grow needed to make money is just another indication of the advancement of the breed.

I would totally agree with you that them un's are indeed way better cattlemen than you are.

As to the ampule breaking, again you show your knowledge or lack there of. There certainly was never a Montbeliarde animal weaned at any time at 850 pounds. That was the milking strain. And there certainly was never an Abondance that did either. They were smaller and lighter boned than todays cattle.

You just spew this crap out of your mouth instead of your butt like you know what you are talking about. You didn't know anything about Scott's bull, you don't know anything about strains of Simmental cattle, but you pontificate on both. Why couldn't you just say that Simmental cattle don't grow like they used to either? Why all the crap to go with it? You just enjoy being a butt?

And knowing Scott, I don't think he was poking fun at anyone. I think he gave a report on what he observed with his own eyes. And another thing, I don't know where this commercial herd of 1700 pound cows is located. But I seriously doubt many of these bulls could do them any good as they wouldn't be tall enough to breed them unless they caught them in a ditch.

I like lot21 ok, like X Bar said (he must have been away from the bong) you have to assume that they are all fed the same and if he got the fattest then he must be the easiest doing. If I were a commercial producer I would like 17,18,19. But I would have to see some actual performance data. Someone above mentioned that the bulls would have scan data to match any set of bulls in Denver.  Scan data, doesn't mean squat to me as a commercial producer I sell by the pound. When they start scanning the calves before they buy them and paying me based on scan data I will be more attentive to it. Until then, the more they weigh, the more they pay.

As to the growth being "so great" you really don't want to mathematically go down that road again do you? Really? How about if I just say that there is nothing more important to the profitability of a cow calf operation than a growth rate that doesn't negate acceptable calving ease? Oh and black hide.

 

[blackdiamond]

do commercial buyer's want to see BW listed in catalogs?  The footnotes talk of B-Y spread-- yet I've not seen much for actual weights... n

It all looks good on paper, but how many commercial buyers go to that sale, and ACTUALLY BUY?

 

[garybob]

Who said I was referring to a herd of 1700-lb commercial cows? 70% of these bulls are going out to purebred Shorthorn herds that have been selected for the maximum growth traits for multiple generations. Like AJ, has said (and said, and said, and said, etc) that "we" in the Shorthorn breed have a cow-size challenge. Although there are exceptions, most of the "performance" Shorthorn herds need to be toned-down a good bit.
Before Simmentals could re-capture their rightful share of the working-man's dollars, they had to do like Wiley-Coyote and go back to the ol' drawing board. How? First of all, they had to get their cow size in-check with Industry demands, did they not? After this was accomplished, as well as proving a few other myths wrong ( birth weight, hide color, marbling, mature size, etc), then they were allowed back into the game.
As far as my other sideways comment about the 850-lb weaning weights.....as I remember, most Simmental Breeders would  use a Full-Fleck bull on a cow that was say, 1/4 Abondance, 1/4 montbelliarde, and half Fleckvieh, this produced the necessary "shock-and-awe" effect, in order to attract the attention of Cowmen. Grain was plentiful and cheap then and consumers wanted leaner beef at the time. The rules were different then.
GB

 

[scotland]

Gary Bob wil i see you in Denver on Saturday? Like to chat some Simi as i was one of the early guys in.  Lacombe Achilles on Jakes Proud Jazz think be a great beef beast.

 

[GONEWEST]

Who said I was referring to a herd of 1700-lb commercial cows? 70% of these bulls are going out to purebred Shorthorn herds that have been selected for the maximum growth traits for multiple generations. Like AJ, has said (and said, and said, and said, etc) that "we" in the Shorthorn breed have a cow-size challenge. Although there are exceptions, most of the "performance" Shorthorn herds need to be toned-down a good bit.
Before Simmentals could re-capture their rightful share of the working-man's dollars, they had to do like Wiley-Coyote and go back to the ol' drawing board. How? First of all, they had to get their cow size in-check with Industry demands, did they not? After this was accomplished, as well as proving a few other myths wrong ( birth weight, hide color, marbling, mature size, etc), then they were allowed back into the game.
As far as my other sideways comment about the 850-lb weaning weights.....as I remember, most Simmental Breeders would  use a Full-Fleck bull on a cow that was say, 1/4 Abondance, 1/4 montbelliarde, and half Fleckvieh, this produced the necessary "shock-and-awe" effect, in order to attract the attention of Cowmen. Grain was plentiful and cheap then and consumers wanted leaner beef at the time. The rules were different then.
GB

Doesn't matter if they are commercial or not, any cows that those bulls are big enough to breed don't need downsizing no matter what they weigh.

AS I SAID, the cattle those 10 framed animals were bred to mate with a national cow herd of midgets that needed to be bred to giraffes. As the cow herd changed so did the type of cattle seed stock producers raised. OF ALL BREEDS not just Simmental's. Angus bulls with Holstein and fullblood Chi mixed in were taller than anything. The only thing that Simmentals changed that is not in the natural evolution of the American cow herd was color. And with that came the dumbing down of Simmental growth and milk to Angus levels and in some cases today below.

I think you have a memory problem and that you have never in your life seen a 1/4 Abondance, 1/4 Montbeliarde 1/2 Fleck animal. You wouldn't know either of them from a Daschund. You just want to spew a bunch of crapola and hope some who don't know any better think it's true.

What does grain being cheap have to do with anything? Certainly you realize that at today's prices calves with high early growth rates are like money printing machines. The more money you put into them the more comes out when you sell them. I'll be more than happy to give you a math lesson if you like.

But again the main point is that you know nothing of Scott nor his bull. He said nothing about you, nothing offensive to you,  yet you attack him with nonsense like it was fact. What is your justification for that? Just felt like being a butt?

 

[JTM]

But if you're selecting for functional characteristics, 21 has to be at the top of your list.

It is hard to look past this bull but I just felt he seemed a little too extreme and from the picture would question whether he is too fat or would hold up carrying that much weight on that frame. If I was in Denver he would be one of the bulls I would want to see walk around for sure! It's one of those catalogs that you just need to see the cattle for yourself in order to get a feel for what is there. They all just look really good and consistently so. It would be a lot of fun to take about 8 hours studying and analyzing these bulls and coming up with a strategy to get one...

What do you mean by extreme?  As far as him being so fat, this is a huge plus for me..  These bulls have been on the same ration as each other( I assume) and you see how much more weight 21 carries than the rest.  He is the easiest fleshing bull in the group.  Obviously in the pasture he wouldn't be that fat but I wouldn't expect him to lose weight on pasture any quicker than the other bulls.  He's proved his efficiency by the amount of weight he carries/has gained on the same ration as the others and he looks extremely useful to me.  I did watch him in the video and he has much more sheath than I'd prefer.  I have a Bonanza son and he is the same way.  JDMC has another solid red Bonanza son as lot 1 in their sale that is a stud too.  Would love to have the cash to buy em both! I agree, pics and videos only go so far. Needa be there in person to get the best feel.

That's a good point. Being they are in the same contemporary group and he has a lot of flesh on him... Not sure on his frame score but maybe he is a tick small for me? He just seems really, really thick for his frame size and the first thing that comes to my mind is longevity, injury, and ability to breed cows. Like we both said, it's hard to tell from a picture and he would be very interesting to look at in person...

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Gonewest , I respect your vast knowledge of research you have done. I really do. Here is what I think. SAV cattle get 850 lb ww all the time. Artificial environment. I don't know your friend at all or his cattle. What I do know is Simmental = Angus. No difference really these days. Performance is available at nausium. Simmentals have no breed character or indentity anymore. Maybe a blaze face. Wal mart ate you up. For all the faults on shorthorns out there, I'll say this, a true cross of a shorthorn from say Rob Sneed on a angus from say Shoshone will make one of the best mamma cows walking. Now if the Simmental hadn't went black and never went back they could be in position to capture the benefits of a terminal cross on a sh x an cow. It would benefit all. Instead I think you are now seeing the peak for the Simmental breed. How many times can you infuse angus before folks get bored and numb to it? I like the old simmentals. I know nothing of them pre Nichols Black Magic. I've seen some old type simmys. Even had a chocolate one. I bred her shorthorn. She had a purple roan that grew like a raped ape. She broke her back on the ice in a bad ice storm the next year. I really liked her.

 

[J2F]

Gonewest , I respect your vast knowledge of research you have done. I really do. Here is what I think. SAV cattle get 850 lb ww all the time. Artificial environment. I don't know your friend at all or his cattle. What I do know is Simmental = Angus. No difference really these days. Performance is available at nausium. Simmentals have no breed character or indentity anymore. Maybe a blaze face. Wal mart ate you up. For all the faults on shorthorns out there, I'll say this, a true cross of a shorthorn from say Rob Sneed on a angus from say Shoshone will make one of the best mamma cows walking. Now if the Simmental hadn't went black and never went back they could be in position to capture the benefits of a terminal cross on a sh x an cow. It would benefit all. Instead I think you are now seeing the peak for the Simmental breed. How many times can you infuse angus before folks get bored and numb to it? I like the old simmentals. I know nothing of them pre Nichols Black Magic. I've seen some old type simmys. Even had a chocolate one. I bred her shorthorn. She had a purple roan that grew like a raped ape. She broke her back on the ice in a bad ice storm the next year. I really liked her.

Amen....This goes for more than just Simmental.

 

[J2F]

I just realized this is a bid-off sale and not an auction. Was this sale always like this?

 

[GONEWEST]

Gonewest , I respect your vast knowledge of research you have done. I really do. Here is what I think. SAV cattle get 850 lb ww all the time. Artificial environment. I don't know your friend at all or his cattle. What I do know is Simmental = Angus. No difference really these days. Performance is available at nausium. Simmentals have no breed character or indentity anymore. Maybe a blaze face. Wal mart ate you up. For all the faults on shorthorns out there, I'll say this, a true cross of a shorthorn from say Rob Sneed on a angus from say Shoshone will make one of the best mamma cows walking. Now if the Simmental hadn't went black and never went back they could be in position to capture the benefits of a terminal cross on a sh x an cow. It would benefit all. Instead I think you are now seeing the peak for the Simmental breed. How many times can you infuse angus before folks get bored and numb to it? I like the old simmentals. I know nothing of them pre Nichols Black Magic. I've seen some old type simmys. Even had a chocolate one. I bred her shorthorn. She had a purple roan that grew like a raped ape. She broke her back on the ice in a bad ice storm the next year. I really liked her.

I would agree totally that Simmentals have dumbed themselves down to Angus levels in growth and Milk. Moronic. However, I would also say that Simmentals are HOT, record prices on bull sales. Shorthorns by Rob Sneed or John Deere or anyone else targeted toward the commercial industry are not. There must be some reason. And it sure isn't the brain trust that runs the Simmental association.

 

[J2F]

Gonewest , I respect your vast knowledge of research you have done. I really do. Here is what I think. SAV cattle get 850 lb ww all the time. Artificial environment. I don't know your friend at all or his cattle. What I do know is Simmental = Angus. No difference really these days. Performance is available at nausium. Simmentals have no breed character or indentity anymore. Maybe a blaze face. Wal mart ate you up. For all the faults on shorthorns out there, I'll say this, a true cross of a shorthorn from say Rob Sneed on a angus from say Shoshone will make one of the best mamma cows walking. Now if the Simmental hadn't went black and never went back they could be in position to capture the benefits of a terminal cross on a sh x an cow. It would benefit all. Instead I think you are now seeing the peak for the Simmental breed. How many times can you infuse angus before folks get bored and numb to it? I like the old simmentals. I know nothing of them pre Nichols Black Magic. I've seen some old type simmys. Even had a chocolate one. I bred her shorthorn. She had a purple roan that grew like a raped ape. She broke her back on the ice in a bad ice storm the next year. I really liked her.

I would agree totally that Simmentals have dumbed themselves down to Angus levels in growth and Milk. Moronic. However, I would also say that Simmentals are HOT, record prices on bull sales. Shorthorns by Rob Sneed or John Deere or anyone else targeted toward the commercial industry are not. There must be some reason. And it sure isn't the brain trust that runs the Simmental association.

And before Simmentals it was Maines. What breed  will be next?

 

[RyanChandler]

Gonewest , I respect your vast knowledge of research you have done. I really do.

I sure as hell don't.  He's a sob and if he was half as balsy in real life as he is in his pm's, I'd be his huckleberry real quick like.  He's a coward and he runs his mouth behind is screen name.