I live in Texas, and as many of you know, we are in a really nasty drought as is most of the nation. I have a question, I have a pasture (10acres) that is good coastal grass (when we get rain). I am wondering, should I leave it that way or plant a more drought resistant type of grass. If so, what type would work best? Also, if I do keep it, would fertilizing it help a bit or would it be a waste of my money due to the drought? Thank you for any information and help!!
Fertilizer/ Grass Question
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shortyjock89
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I'd get a soil survey done first, to see if fertilizer would even do you any good. Is irrigation possible for you? If it is, then maybe split your pasture up and then graze it rotationally. That would be idea (as I'm sure you know)...if not, then I would say plant a hardier grass in, but maybe one that won't necessarily overpower the coastal grass (if that's possible, I'm not really sure...) good luck, I know we have some people on here that are VERY good with pasture management.
CM Cattle
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I agree, you should get a soil survay done befor you do anything.Olson Family Shorthorns said:
I am assuming that the soil survey can be done by the County Extension Agent...correct? Or who? I will also add, that when we get good rain, our pasture is full of coastal grass. 2 years ago, when we had a very wet spring, we got 3 cuts of hay off of this particular 10 acre tract and got about 35-40 bales a cut. So, grass will grow pretty easy with rain. Maybe I need to look into an irrigation system. Any ideas on that? Thanks for the help guys....I really appreciate the information!
TJ
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The people who do organic farming (many of them are in Texas) all swear by spray broadcasting a mixture of 1 gallon of liquid molasses + 100 gallons of water on their pastures several times per year. I've been told that you get more "bang for you buck" doing that than anything else. It probably will cost more to apply it than it will to buy the molasses & water. Supposedly it will help to put some trace minerals back in the soil, but the main benefit is that the molasses feeds the beneficial bugs in the soil, which build organic matter. I know people use dry molasses for organic lawn care, but that would get quite costly & you need rain/water to take it in the ground. Plus, if you are in a drought, I would think that every drop of liquid would help. ***Note... if you spray it as Chambero mentioned below... don't do the molasses spray thing, because it will not help! The chemical spray is counter productive to doing this, because it will kill the bugs that you are feeding. Actually, the organic people claim that the molasses mixture will reduce weed populations over time, due to increased fertility/production, and they claim that over time the chemicals will eventually increase weeds due to the opposite effects. Beyond telling you what the organic people think... I'm not touching that one! ;-)
The other big thing that they recommend is using lime to get the PH where it needs to be. You would need a soil test to do that.
Lots of other things, like humate, Compost Tea, Sea Salt, Fish emulsion or hydroylsate, animal waste/manure, etc., etc.
Why mention organic soil improvement methods?
#1. It's the cheapest, most cost effective way to go.
#2. It takes some time, but it works & the results actually last longer.
#3. I know several people using these methods & all of them swear that their pastures look better than everybody else's pastures during a drought & they bounce back faster after a rain.
#4. I've seen their pastures & they are doing something right that others are not doing!
If I was thinking of spending some $$, I'd at least investigate these methods. If you want more info, PM me.
RE irrigation... you would need a good water source... ground well, river, pond, etc. I guess you could "buy" your water, but that might get a little costly trying to irrigate 10 acres.
The other big thing that they recommend is using lime to get the PH where it needs to be. You would need a soil test to do that.
Lots of other things, like humate, Compost Tea, Sea Salt, Fish emulsion or hydroylsate, animal waste/manure, etc., etc.
Why mention organic soil improvement methods?
#1. It's the cheapest, most cost effective way to go.
#2. It takes some time, but it works & the results actually last longer.
#3. I know several people using these methods & all of them swear that their pastures look better than everybody else's pastures during a drought & they bounce back faster after a rain.
#4. I've seen their pastures & they are doing something right that others are not doing!
If I was thinking of spending some $$, I'd at least investigate these methods. If you want more info, PM me.
RE irrigation... you would need a good water source... ground well, river, pond, etc. I guess you could "buy" your water, but that might get a little costly trying to irrigate 10 acres.
What part of Texas are you in?
I live up near Wichita Falls. We are right on the edge of where coastal works. Most of our pastures are natives or improved versions of bluestems, etc, but we have a little bermudagrass here and there.
For 10 acres, I would not change. You get so much more production out of it than natives if you can spend the money on fertilizing it. The single best thing you can do is spray it for weeds every spring. If you haven't done that before, you'll be amazed how it helps - especially in a drought. GrazonNext is about the best chemical, but there are cheaper versions of 2,4-D that will work also.
If you want to maximize grass production, stick with your traditional fertilizers. That's why they are traditional. And this is coming from a family that won last year's Society for Range Management Oustanding Range Management Award. You are probably wanting to grow as much hay or run as many cows as you can. That's the only way to do it - kill your weeds + fertilize it and hope it rains. You local NRCS office can help you with soil testing to maximize your fertilizer dollars though. Be sure and do that if you don't already. Just costs a few dollars and keeps you from wasting money.
I live up near Wichita Falls. We are right on the edge of where coastal works. Most of our pastures are natives or improved versions of bluestems, etc, but we have a little bermudagrass here and there.
For 10 acres, I would not change. You get so much more production out of it than natives if you can spend the money on fertilizing it. The single best thing you can do is spray it for weeds every spring. If you haven't done that before, you'll be amazed how it helps - especially in a drought. GrazonNext is about the best chemical, but there are cheaper versions of 2,4-D that will work also.
If you want to maximize grass production, stick with your traditional fertilizers. That's why they are traditional. And this is coming from a family that won last year's Society for Range Management Oustanding Range Management Award. You are probably wanting to grow as much hay or run as many cows as you can. That's the only way to do it - kill your weeds + fertilize it and hope it rains. You local NRCS office can help you with soil testing to maximize your fertilizer dollars though. Be sure and do that if you don't already. Just costs a few dollars and keeps you from wasting money.
knabe
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TJ said:
so are there actual trials rather than swearing?
why not just feed the molasses and water to the cattle and let them distribute it?
any soil tests to detect trace mineral increase or stability?
funny how ALWAYS the organic method is incompatible with conventional fertilizers and sprays.
this is the fundamental requirement of religion.
please provide peer reviewed studies with actual data. claims are simply useless.
TJ
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chambero said:
I agree if you are talking about "lime, manure/animal waste, compost, etc." Doesn't get any more traditional than those & they are cheaper on your pocket book. FWIW, some of the highest yielding corn ground I know of is about a 50 acre spot where an old dairy used to be (manure/compost).
TJ
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knabe said:
I was just giving 2nd hand info ("The people who do organic farming all swear...") & also sharing my own personal observations. However, I can tell you that a test plot was done 15-20 years ago where a mixture of water & sugar provided an increase in corn yield over the control plots. The results weren't published, but I can probably get my hands on them. If I can produce that the test plot results showing that sugar & water worked, will that satisfy?
knabe... letting cattle fertilize the pastures themselves is by far the most cost effective fertilization program going! That's a big reason why intense rotational grazing works so well. Of course, animals do absorb some of the nutrients, and it does take longer for nature to break down a pile of manure than it does liquid molasses, but I suspect that you already realized that...
knabe... it's obvious that this topic strikes a nerve with you. But, you are correct, you should always do a soil test... both a before & after. I never said that a person shouldn't. A company in or near, Princeton, IL, sells many of these products & "other" Ag products (it's not a 100% organic outfit) & they base their entire program on taking "multiple soil tests" & making recommendations. The tests are done before and after. I could also put you in contact with them & maybe they will share their test results with you. I've never applied molasses, so I've never tested for it. I don't have the results in front of me for the same reason. Personally, I was just trying to be helpful & my info was provided on a "take or leave it" basis. I could care less if anyone tries it & I wont make a dime either way. I suspect since nobody has a patent on molasses & nothing to gain, is probably why no public trials have been conducted.
Knabe... you can't tell me that compost needs a trial to prove that it will work. How many horticulturalist use or recommend compost? Yet compost is incompatible with most conventional practices. Compost was one of the things that I mentioned. In the tea form, it can be broadcast via spray. As can the liquid molasses.
If you really want to see test results or research & see if these things work or not, I'll give you the contact info & I'll let you do the digging. I know what I know... I have nothing to gain by doing it & nothing to lose by not doing it. Again, I was just trying to be helpful. Sorry that bothers you. I can be wrong & I for sure don't have all the answers.
Here is the website for AgriEnergy Resources in Princeton, IL... http://www.agrienergy.net/ They offer "lab services" for soil AND plant testing. How many test their own plants to check the uptake? I've seen their products in action & they work.
Conklin has some extremely good products too... they are not certified organic, but they are really good "non traditonal products" that can be applied by a sprayer. I've got gobs of pics (like double or triple the root mass size), trial results & plenty of literature to prove those work. We have plenty of grain farmers who buy bulk tank truck loads of the stuff, so they obviously think that they work. The only thing is, they can be a little pricey, but if you simply want results... I don't think Conklin can be beat.
With all that said, not everything posted on steer planet has to be backed up by research. How many swear by this hair mixture or that one... yet very little, if any trial data is ever shared as to which mix makes the hair train better, pop more, grow faster or become better conditioned... ? Is beet pulp better fed wet or dry or pelleted of in shreds? Is beet pulp better or are cotton seed hulls better? Is liquid fat better than feeding a solid fat supplement like stabilized rice bran? So many questions, so little research, yet so many posts with different answers. Yet, I'm probably the only poster asked to provide research.
CJC
Well-known member
For no more than land than what you got I would call a liquid fertilizer co. and see how much it would cost to use 13-13-13 + (graze on) what ever weed killer you want you. They can put it out at the same time.
Our bermudagrass pastures down here get used and abused for the most part. They can produce an amazing amount of forage and hay if managed right - which requires lots of "inputs".
Organic "grass farming" is almost a polar opposite to management of bermudagrass pastures. Bermudagrass pastures have no value whatsoever to wildlife or anything else. They are great for cows and horses and that's about it. That's not how we manage most of our land, but that is how someone should manage a small bermudagrass plot. They might as well because its not any use for anything else.
Organic "grass farming" is almost a polar opposite to management of bermudagrass pastures. Bermudagrass pastures have no value whatsoever to wildlife or anything else. They are great for cows and horses and that's about it. That's not how we manage most of our land, but that is how someone should manage a small bermudagrass plot. They might as well because its not any use for anything else.
knabe
Well-known member
TJ said:
what was the control plot and what was the increase. were plots completely randomized with what size cells and were plots replicated over what area?
not disputing compost. only plot design. also, seed company trials are always suspect as well, that's why distributorships do them. even those are suspect, as one could expect kickbacks to influence. that's why, ultimately, one takes data for themselves. if molasses and water worked, more people would be doing it. people have been doing the manure thing for thousands of years. only recently, with varieties developed specifically to take advantage of synthetic fertilizes have we moved away from organic......
anecdotal information gets too much credit for these type of testimonials. there should be more transparency in birth certificates and molasses trials. (not picking on you tj)
[email protected]
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Since I work for extension I hear this question every other day during a dry year.
First if it is dry, it won't matter what is out there it won't grow. Even varieties that are drought resistant will wilt and go away without any moisture. since it has an establised root system that is deep. It is getting enough moisture to survive. I would not plow it up. Newly planted grass in a dought season is doomed from the beginning.
Here is what I tell producers.
1. Get a soil sample. Don't fertilize unless you have too.
2. Spray for weeds as early as the season allows. Killing weeds will do more for the grass than anything.
3. If you can catch a rainy season, fertilize what you can afford.
4. Don't over stock your pasture. 10 acres won't hold many cattle for a year around pasture.
Lastly. Pray for rain. (angel)
Good Luck
First if it is dry, it won't matter what is out there it won't grow. Even varieties that are drought resistant will wilt and go away without any moisture. since it has an establised root system that is deep. It is getting enough moisture to survive. I would not plow it up. Newly planted grass in a dought season is doomed from the beginning.
Here is what I tell producers.
1. Get a soil sample. Don't fertilize unless you have too.
2. Spray for weeds as early as the season allows. Killing weeds will do more for the grass than anything.
3. If you can catch a rainy season, fertilize what you can afford.
4. Don't over stock your pasture. 10 acres won't hold many cattle for a year around pasture.
Lastly. Pray for rain. (angel)
Good Luck
TJ
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chambero said:
Any nitrogen source + adequate water will increase your yield of Bermuda. However, simply providing nitrogen without "enough" water or without increasing the soil / plants ability to better tolerate drought conditions, isn't going to be the answer.
I want to clear up that I never said that anyone should "only" use organics. I was suggesting trying an extremely "cheap" organic method & then use that in addition to whatever else you wanted to do. Conklin isn't organic & Agri/Energy isn't 100% organic. But, they both focus on increasing organic matter in the soil, so those products will work with organic matter, not against it. If Conklin can get 300+ bushels per acres in corn yield test trials (and significantly increase root mass which is critical in a drought area!), I guarantee that it will grow a serious amount of bermuda grass! If I had bermuda & I wanted max. production, and costs meant nothing, I'd irrigate it daily & I'd throw a bunch of Conklin products to it.
The ONLY thing that I did say that was contradictory to your post, is that I would not use molasses if I was going to spray any type of "weed killer" on the pasture, because it's counter productive. Herbicides are not inputs for the plants, they simply kill competing plants. Adding inputs is one thing, but applying herbicide is a TOTALLY different thing. I personally wouldn't spray anything on a pasture expect for the fence rows, but that is just me. However, if somebody wants to spray there fields that is fine, I know lots of people that do it. All I was saying is just don't spray the molasses too & expect it to work. Do 1 or the other, but not both. Herbicides are not really good for earthworms or dung beetles or any organic matter. But, worms & dung beetles are great for pastures/soil. Molasses will help increase organic matter, but herbicides are made to kill & they are known to cause cancer in things that they don't kill.
We grow some bermuda up here (not sure of the exact variety), but it's so thick & dense when it's growing that it doesn't require any herbicides. Matter of fact at 30 days our hay mower bogs down while cutting it. We hardly ever fertilize & we never spray for weeds. It sounds like your area & your variety of Bermuda may be different... I didn't know that. But, I can tell you that our only weed problems, in any of our pastures, are where the cattle have killed the grass due to tromping/mud OR in areas that have been repeatedly sprayed with "weed killer" OR in areas where run off from our neighbors corn/soy bean field washes into our pasture during heavy rain. And whether they are "weirdos or quacks or whatever they may be" (I don't know), plenty of Texas organic people seem to be happy with organics on bermuda & other pastures. But, then again, of course they would be happy.
I've seen Conklin in action & I've seen Agri/Energy... I'm confident that great results could be gained.
TJ
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knabe said:
I'll see what I can find out. It's been several years & I wasn't directly involved. My uncle was involved & he told me about the sugar water working. He only mentioned it after I mentioned to him that I might try molasses on some pastures. He was very skeptical about the molasses, but he kept telling me that the sugar water obviously did something for the corn. Anyway, it was all independently done, but I am pretty sure that it was all verified by a county Ag agent. Same variety of corn was used in all. The test was done in rows & they were randomly spaced apart. I don't think that anybody was expecting the sugar water to increase the yield (it was like a placebo), even though it did just that. I think it increased the yield by around 5 bushels per acre... it was enough that it opened some eyes. My uncle remembered it. I don't know how much sugar was used, but I suspect that it wasn't a large amount.
knabe, enough people are using molasses and water that I honestly think that there is something to it. Is it a miracle cure? Absolutely not. They recommend 3-4 applications per year, but supposedly by the 2nd year, the results really start to show. Also, almost anywhere that organic lawn care is done, molasses is almost always used as a staple product. All I can tell you is what I've been told. I'd like to try it though. And 1 gallon of molasses per 100 gallons of water isn't very expensive to try. If it only helped a little, it would be worth it. Like I said the whole point of the molasses mix is to feed the organic matter, which is supposed to improve the soil. Organic matter takes time to build. I suspect that most people want immediate results & most are way too skeptical to even try it. With that said, clear water balloons filled with water & out in direct sunlight will repel flies, but not everyone uses them either.
TJ said:
First of all, I don't like bermudagrass for the very reasons you mention. We've got about 10 acres of it below my house and a little here in there that has invaded from neighbors into some of our pastures. A lot of our pastures have various varieties of native and improved bluestems, klinegrass, WW Spar, buffalograss, sideoats, etc. We don't fertilize them at all. We have begun a selective weedspraying program to fight a curlycup gumweed infestation in one area and general problems with ragweed and other common weeds in our area.
Our relative lack of water combined with common overgrazing allows weeds to be a big issue down here. Weed spraying with good herbicides (like the Grazon products) in my opinion is much less harmful than use of too much fertilizer.
I don't have much experience with managing pastures. I'm a student at Iowa State and when we toured the pastures at the cow farm I learned some very good things as well as info from my other agronomy classes. I know Texas and Iowa are a long ways away, but here are some good places to start. There has also been some very helpful information given. 10 acres is not many so it could be hard to do a rotation on it. Any good seed company or agronomist should be able to help too. As said before start with a soil sample to see what the fertility is. If you are willing to reseed the pasture Use a mix that will grow decent in the cooler season and another grass that grows and produces well in the warm season and also if you can get grasses that are decent with drought. Usually to gain one thing you have to give up another. Next get some kind of legume to mix in with the grasses. The grasses should produce well throughout the season, and the legume will fix some nitrogen for the grasses which will help them grow better and then it is up to the cows to spread the other fertilizer around. Hopefully this is helpful.
simtal
Well-known member
TJ said:
I've also heard that it can kill "bad bugs" because the sugar is toxic to them?
1. Get a soil test.
2. If the field has not been aerated in the last 3 years do so.
3. A root developer by a good company like Conklin or other companies which are more affordable.... some have programs on RFD-TV.
4. All crops need more than nitrogen.
5. Chambero is correct about weed control and he named a good one. For annuals you could use a reemergence.
I like Giant better than coastal. Coastal gets tough and my experience is the cattle will eat it last when you put it out as a hay over other hays.
This year I am going to plant 3 acres of Wondergrass. It too is an improved Bermuda. If it works I will sprig more later.
2. If the field has not been aerated in the last 3 years do so.
3. A root developer by a good company like Conklin or other companies which are more affordable.... some have programs on RFD-TV.
4. All crops need more than nitrogen.
5. Chambero is correct about weed control and he named a good one. For annuals you could use a reemergence.
I like Giant better than coastal. Coastal gets tough and my experience is the cattle will eat it last when you put it out as a hay over other hays.
This year I am going to plant 3 acres of Wondergrass. It too is an improved Bermuda. If it works I will sprig more later.
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