Fightin' Words

[Doc]

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job... 

You had a 150 calves in 1 year by a virgin bull? Thats pretty good. What kind of calving window did you have?

He never ran more than 40 heifers at a time- and it (calving season) lasted for a full 13 months- looking back, you can pretty well tell by calving dates, when he was turned in with a new group of heifers.-  we had a few in the middle of Jan, as we first turned him in with a group of heifers for cleanup on about 5 that were still cycling, then started the first of March, and went for a month, had a few Aprils, calved real heavy in May, didn't have much for june/ july.. started again in Aug- when pretty hard core until middle of Oct took about a month off, and its been hell on wheels since after L'ville..

This April, will be the 3rd year we have owned him, but our first calves came last Jan.  He bred ours, the neighbors. and a buddies heifers.  This last group we just are about to finish up calving, were turned in to start calving 12-24-10, and started 12-20..  29 of the 35 calved within the first 3 weeks of being turned in, and the remainder will be calving pretty darn quickly.. I think 1 or 2 will be off, and later than I'd like them to be..  We also have another group of about 20 that should calve in March.  

I'm working on a flyer to help promote him, as we just collected him with Interglobe.. I have some new pictures, as a mature bull now..  

I hate to tell you that a year is 12 months not 13 months.   Just curious why you would own & feed a bull for 3 years before you ever bred a cow to him?

 

[GoWyo]

What I want to know is what exactly is "coon footed."  Saw that term recently and last I checked, coons had 5 toes and claws, so this one has me stumped and not sure how it can be a good thing

 

[kfacres]

OK, so subtract 16 calves from his sired by list; that have been born after the 1st of the year.. that makes it 134 calves sired by our RA bull in 12 months!  

we didn't. we purchased him in March of 09- and got him home in April.. and turned him in for cleanup with a group of heifers...  started calving in Jan '10.  So that makes April '11 the 3rd April we have owned him!, and right now we are finishing up the 13th month we have had calves sired by him!  

modify.. 13 is a baker's dozen.. so does that make a 13 month year a baker's year? (lol)

 

[MYT Farms]

What I want to know is what exactly is "coon footed."  Saw that term recently and last I checked, coons had 5 toes and claws, so this one has me stumped and not sure how it can be a good thing

Lol, I took the structure arguments from the Denver posts and the Sweetheart sale and rolled them all into one here. Coon footed was defined by a gentleman as so loose in the pasterns that they were almost too weak. Hence, technically you could breed a straight ended bull that pops on the pasterns and wind up with a perfectly structured calf. I think that's the intent anyway.

 

[linnettejane]

i usually avoid these topics...but will put my 2 cents worth in on this one...

in my opinion, the problem lies in the phrase itself....."calving ease".....what does that really mean???  when someone says their bull is calving ease, then you better ask them what their definition is before you buy into the product...i think that woud alleviate some of the confusion...

for some, calving ease may mean you'll get a live calf!  period.  thats it.  for others it may mean youll get a calf that you have to assist a little.  and yet others may see calving ease based on a calf weight...others may promote calving ease based on genetics...and others may use the term based on calf structure...

the problem is, for every person that uses the term calving ease...there is a different definition....

this past fall, i sold a bull...he was out of 2 legandary and proven calving ease bulls...gizmo and legend...he was born unassisted, and 78 lbs, did i promote him as calving ease?  no, i promoted him as having potential for calving ease...the potentials there, and thats it...thats all i can say...he was only 6 months old...i didnt have any hard core proof that he was going to throw 60 lber's that fell out of their momma's...i think just adding one word, like "potential" makes a difference...

 

[linnettejane]

and something else worth mentioning...a calving ease bull is only half the equation...i think alot of times people will use a calving ease bull thinking that automatically means their prayers will be answered and they will have no problems...but forget about the other 50 % of the equation that belongs to the cow...i have a cow that consistently spits out 90-100+ lbers all day long with no problems...it wouldnt matter if i bred her to a mini billy goat...so i think people who have cows like that are fooling themselves if they think  a bull is going to solve their calving issues, whatever their calving issues may be...
just as an example...no personal experience here...but it would be like a heatwave heifer bred to occ legend...is that a guarenteed unassited 70lb'er? ? ?

 

[vc]

MYT, I would say there are more pure bred bulls that should have been steers, than club calves bulls. There are probably 1 or 2 more Monopoly bulls than needed, but time will sort them out.

 

[chambero]

Compared to where continental purebreds and show cattle were 20 years ago, calving ease is about the least of our problems.  Way too much emphasis on it overall

 

[mlazyj]

I'll bale because I'am a commercial guy whos kids show some home raised commercial steers at a local fair to help pay for their college . The club calf sceen is a dog show ,all fluff and puff and doesn't reflect a damn thing about meat in the grocery store . If our judging coach is pulling 120 pound calves and thinks it's normal , he's a moron flat out . Everyone wants to piont fingers at Chars and Simms 20 years ago . Yep they had big calves out of big cows , problem is the American way is to make everything big . Well they got with it and changed for the better .  80 pound birth weights and higher weaning weights. When you have 600 pound calf to sell without putting anything extra into it you got a chance at makeing money . The dead ones don't pay , neither does a tore up cow. Club calf are mutts , bred for hair ,and color . Untill the judges start judging these steers as finished market animals and not poodles you're going to continue to have this circus. Long and short of it , start breeding and showing real market cattle ,and leave the drag show in SanFransisco.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[shortyjock89]

I'm pretty sure showing steers and club calves is for "fun" more or less. 

You can have carcass competitions if you want to compare the meat in the grocery store.

I bet there are some poodle breeders who make more money than you and I put together.

 

[jason]

I have no problem with debate raging on, it seems to have surpassed the genetic defects for being all the rage on this board.  I do have a problem by dragging people into for no other reason that they have been successful in producing bulls that win shows.

I think you might be surprised how many people read these forums.  We are hovering close to 30,000 unique visitors this month and you can plainly see we don't have 30,000 posters.  When you try to drag someone's name through the mud to make a point, I hear about it.  Remember you are solely responsible for what you post, my responsibility lies in the fact that if I a notified about a particular post, that I find a quick solution to the problem.

Discuss away. 

 

[MYT Farms]

I wasn't naming any names. I have no beef with any breeder that I know of. Numerous bulls have been promoted as calving ease and several 9 month old bulls show up at Denver every year to be promoted as A.I. sires before they're even producing semen. Several people have chimed in with intelligent conversation about what the new industry status quo is in terms of calving ease and bulls being promoted as A.I. sires. That was the intent of the original post. It was worded the way it was because it just seemed to me that the industry is getting a little carried away with hyping calves. The calving ease is a bit different simply because clubbies don't calve as easy as an Angus, but I was interested in knowing what is calving ease with club calves now-a-days. Differing opinions have clashed, as they always do, but we're not here to muddy any names. Just discuss where the industry is at. And sometimes, that can ruffle feathers.

 

[jason]

I wasn't specifically pointing anyone out and have no problem with this topic at all.  I just wanted to reiterate as a whole that any debate is fine if people don't cross the line.

Actually look at the debate threads and see how many more looks and posts they generate.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[GONEWEST]

Why is it so difficult for people not to throw rocks at the club calf industry? Why don't you constantly complain about the hunting dog industry or maybe Japanese whaling? Those industry's are as near to the "real world" beef cattle industry as the club calf industry is. Why not pick at them for a while?  If you don't like this activity then why not start your own board and slobber all over each others Jersey and Red Angus bulls? Why the constant picking at something some people enjoy?

 

[MYT Farms]

Well, I believe that the common consensus is that things are perfect the way they are. No change needs to take place. It is a separate industry with separate ideals. Which, I understand. Closed thread.

 

[mike63]

when the shows start choosing judges that raise cattle themselves, things will take care of themselves,

 

[farwest]

Amen jason. People fueling this thread are too stupid to decide themselves whether a bull is ce by his bloodlines.  Again it comes down to jealousy of people with success. As jason said. Be careful about tearing a bull down on here.  They stood in denver. J schroeder videoed em.  Now you make your choice.  Some people have bo idea the time and expense involved in these bulls.  They don't need someone tearing them down hiding in front of a pc, who wouldn't make the same comment in front of 10 people let alone thousands on here. 

 

[kfacres]

Amen jason. People fueling this thread are too stupid to decide themselves whether a bull is ce by his bloodlines.  Again it comes down to jealousy of people with success. As jason said. Be careful about tearing a bull down on here.  They stood in denver. J schroeder videoed em.  Now you make your choice.  Some people have bo idea the time and expense involved in these bulls.  They don't need someone tearing them down hiding in front of a pc, who wouldn't make the same comment in front of 10 people let alone thousands on here. 

(clapping)

 

[flacowman]

My observation is that if the calf gets 50% of his genetics from each parent and each parent is 3 or 4 breeds, there is really no telling on any trait, just a fact.  It's how red still pops up in black angus cattle and the same reason there is no consistency in brangus, gerts, or any other american breed.  I do like to breed a purebred to a crossbred for a terminal calf but otherwise I would much rather see a pasture full of thousand dollar calves than a $50,000 and a hundred mangy looking screwups because genetics are tricky.  Not tryin to make anyone mad but we still don't know all there is to know and never will, inconsistency is what clubby breeders deal with in order to get their stars and consistency is what some others shoot for in order to build a slightly different (not necessarily better or worse) reputation.  And then there are those who have heinz 57 cows and leave a heinz 57 bull on them all year and they get to enjoy surprise babies all year...to each his own.  Personally on our operation last season char cows averaged 78 pound bw, angus 72, and crossbred 75.  Pulled one calf that barely needed touching but we've had bad years too.  It depends as much on feed as genetics on calf size.  Pour feed to em in the second trimester after they wean calves to get bcs back up then slack off and let them get slightly thinner as calving nears is my philosophy.  I have bred a heifer to heatwave and calved her out fine, how?  Grabbing the wrong straw and then managing her intensely and praying the calf took after her calving ease genetics and luckily he did, won our county fair and a good number of other shows around here for the local FFA chapter.

Moral of the story: Anything can and will happen no matter how dumb or smart you (think) you are  <alien> <alien>

 

[JTM]

When it all comes down to it, IMO, there isn't anything better than standing at a gate or sitting on your front porch on a warm summer day watching cattle graze. If you are in the purebred department, club calf, or commercial, you are there because you enjoy it. IMO, the only time we start to have problems is when sellers misrepresent their cattle with full knowledge of their deception. It could be defects, birthweight, birthdate, or genetic history and performance. There is no improvement of the cattle industry without improvement of cattlemen honesty...