Good Calves or Unethical Treatment

[Club_Calf_Breeder]

Ok I am otally ok with breeding cows to bulls with bigger birth weights in order to get a really nice calf. The odds are you will lose a few, but heck I have lost a few using a calving ease bull. I know someone who has bred one of his best donors to Heat Wave 2 years in a row, he lost the calves both times and has come close to losing the cow because of it. Now he has decided that he likes the dead calf so much that he is gonna flush the cow to Heat Wave again this year, trying to get at least 8 eggs. He may not kill the cow, but the other cows he puts the eggs in will have a hard time getting the calves out let alone that they be live healthy bouncing bundles of joy. Please tell me that it is not just me that thinks this is wrong to do that.  ??? ??? ???

 

[LN]

Sounds like a glutton for punishment.

I make stupid mistakes, but I'm smart enough to learn from them and not make them again.

 

[frostback]

If it is not your cow it really is none of your business. Every pregnancy is different, if he thinks it is worth his time and his money let him. Like you said you have problems breeding to calving ease bulls. You can never fully predict the next pregnancy.
One persons idea of cruelty is not the same as another. I hate 60lb calves they never fully catch up to the bigger calves but I know some people strive for them. "to each their own"

 

[chambero]

Depends on why they lost the previous two calves.  We've lost some Heatwaves, but it had nothing to do with calving ease - they just didn't have enough get up and go immediately after birth to make it in our hot weather in late August.  We weren't in a position to babysit them.

 

[simtal]

This would be the same as passing judgement on someone because they raise their kids a different way. It is none of your business.

 

[OH Breeder]

If the calves were of quality the idea of flushing and using recieps seems pretty good. We had a reciep last year that carried triplets. 55#'s a peice and delivered them on her own. Two survived as one was a still born. she was carrying 165#'s of calf. They were not fragile flowers either. they were chunky. I highly doubt the donor cow would have been able to carry what the reciep did. If you are breeding for steers then you really don't care if there is any maternal ability in the calf at all. A reciep may be the best avenue for this cross if the donor is unable to deliver one.
I would caution you on the term of "unethical treatment". Who knows who from PETA or HSUS is googling for these terms. They could come across this thread. I have googled several things and steerplanet topics show up in the google. I am paranoid about all the under-handed stuff they do. I woudn't say its unethical it sounds like it just maybe poor management practice. Although I may not agree with it this person may have more to learn. It may be seem unethical to you and I but to others it may be stupid practice.

 

[Club_Calf_Breeder]

You guys have made great points, but at what point does the club calf business kill their best cows and calves because of birth weight. I didn't mean to use Unethical treatment in a bad way, but when PETA considers showing and tying cattle up at shows unethical I guess this goes a couple steps beyond. I don't see this as truly unethical but he is not high on my people I like list. Both calves were lost because of hip lock, they had to cut both calves in half and c-section the calf. I see this guy as wasting money and probably ruining his best cow. Oh well it is his problem. I was just seeing what other people felt about this as I might use the club calf market as a FFA Public Speaking Topic.

 

[BIGTEX]

Sounds like you are trying to draw someone offsides.  ;D

 

[simtal]

No one is trying to lynch the early imports of 3 or 4 decades ago.  You think heat wave was a hard calver?  What about some of the early simmental, charolais, maine, chi, gelvieh, limmy, and any other continential strain that came across the pound?  IMO, those days were FAR worse than what are experiencing now.

 

[TMJ Show Cattle]

I don't know who you are an could care less.But you seem to me to be a HSUS or Peta person. At best a city type FFA person. Tell us who you are making these allegations, I wanna hear their sde of the story.....While on this subject,I have used HW and so have many other folks I know,with little to no problems whatsoever.

 

[Club_Calf_Breeder]

Ok for those of you who think I am a big city FFA person. I am not i live in a small town called Days Creek, Oregon. if you were to look at a map you couldn't find it. the population is about 235, i live on a large ranch with my family and raise about 150 mature cows. I take a show string of 7 head to fair and then 6 to state fair. I had the Grand Champion steer last year. i am totally against PETA and SUHS or whatever you called it. They make my living hell. they have set my whole show string lose 3 years in a row at both state and county fair. I am just not willing to sacrifice my best cow and soem carries for a genetic matching that so far has got the calf killed. I am not against heat wave, in fact i would love to be able to use him. but on the cows i have in my clubby business, he just wont work. My cows are big birth weight and i don't wanna risk loseing both calf and cow.

 

[TrueVisionGenetics]

Maybe for your speech topic you could speak on the effects that "calving ease" bulls have had on the beef/show industry.  It is a fairly controversial topic that still allows you to argue both sides, but will step on less people's toes. 

In any case, your delivery will get you more points than your topic.

Good luck with your speech!

 

[FJBogey]

Club Calf Breeder, I think you are being a bit dramatic.  There have not been any animals "turned loose" at the Oregon State Fair and I doubt at the Douglas County Fair either.

Maybe an alternative topic for your public speaking contest would be factors affecting birthweight and calving difficulty.  There are many factors that contribute to problems.

There is an old saying: "No Risk, No Reward"....the risk is calving a Heatwave calf.....the reward is selling one. 

 

[knabe]

personally, i don't know what's worse, octamom, the people who adopted a child with 13 defects and expect everyone else to pay for it, that pickens didn't adopt it or worrying about heatwave calves.

personally, i go with the people being worse.  maybe there's a speech in there about hypocrisy.

 

[oakie]

I know the poster and I know that they are in no way shape or form affiliated with PETA or any other group. M.A. did you get your answer, and please remember that people you know also read these forums.  I was present at the local fair and to clear up the matter on cattle being turned loose it was a couple of stupid kids the first night and the next night the calves just slipped the halter.

 

[fed_champions]

I hate 60lb calves they never fully catch up to the bigger calves but I know some people strive for them. "to each their own"

well if u hate 60 pounders cuz they dont grow then u must really hate heat wave... he's not only liable to kill the cow, but his calves come big and grow slow, sounds twice as bad to me

 

[Jill]

I'm not sure you have your facts straight I find it hard to believe someone with a hip locked calf is cutting it in half and doing a c-section.
We have used Heat Wave for many years and never had a problem delivering his calves, I have lost more calves from our calving ease clean up bull than I have from Heat Wave.  I would say your friend has learned their lesson, that the cow he owns can't deliver them, there is nothing wrong with finding a cow (recip) that can, that just makes good business sense.

 

[justintime]

Again Jill has shown that she has the wisdom of Solomon. There are so many cows out there that are so marginal in their calving ability. If these cows have any calving issues, the sire used is almost always given the total blame for this happening. In some cases the sire should be blamed, but I suspect some of these cows would have problems calving most any bull of any breed. How genetics manifest themselves is always a bit of a mystery as well. Sometimes, a cow can be bred to a certain bull and have very normal sized calves and then have a monster the next time from the same sire and the same management. Some things are not always black and white issues.

Let's all use some caution is seeking calving ease and  lower birth weights in our calves. There is enough research that shows that selection for low BW for a few generations also results in smaller pelvic size in the females produced. If we want to see some major calving issues, just continue down the road of selecting the lowest BW sires available and keep the daughters. In a few years, you will probably be an expert on calving problems.

 

[frostback]

I hate 60lb calves they never fully catch up to the bigger calves but I know some people strive for them. "to each their own"

well if u hate 60 pounders cuz they dont grow then u must really hate heat wave... he's not only liable to kill the cow, but his calves come big and grow slow, sounds twice as bad to me

Just figured out my averages for Heatwave. We have had 17 of them in that last few years. Average birth weight 98lbs. Only pulled and lost one. I am chalkin this one up to some human error also. I left the hubby to check on her as I was really tired and he also feel asleep, and by the time we got there I guess it was too late. I would only call it a pull also, we did not need the jack to get it out just chains and us pulling.  It was a recip that got hurt right after she was implanted and never went to pasture and stayed by the house, That is the worse thing for HW calves.  The cows that are on pasture and walking a lot dont have problems here.
I am with JIT with the calving ease bull offspring. I rarely keep heifers from calving ease bulls. I guess it works for me.

 

[cowz]

No one is trying to lynch the early imports of 3 or 4 decades ago.  You think heat wave was a hard calver?  What about some of the early simmental, charolais, maine, chi, gelvieh, limmy, and any other continential strain that came across the pound?  IMO, those days were FAR worse than what are experiencing now.

Great point!   Giving you a karma point on that one!  In the 70's, the first simmies and chi's were bonafide cow killers......and then they had rotten attitudes to boot.   How soon we forget, that as "bad" as we think something is......we have made INCREDIBLE progress over the last 30-40 years (except for sneaking the angus in and wondering why somebody has a red gelbvieh or a red simmental or a red limousin!)   The nerve of some people to not have black charolais!  

On a serious note:  the body condition (either thin or fat) and nutritional status of the cow can also have a HUGE impact on calving ease.  Old show heifers tend to be fat. If they don't recooperate from all that corn, they not only have a hard time breeding....it takes them twice as long to dialate and move that calf through their hips.  JMO