Health Care

[Jill]

There was a thread on here but I don't remember what it was under of why Americans are so against socialized health care, got an email today that I think pretty much sums it up.

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775 - they've had 234 years to get it right; it is broke, and even though heavily subsidized, it can't compete with private sector FedEx and UPS services.

Social Security was established in 1935 - they've had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938 - they've had 71 years to get it right; it is broke. Freddie Mac was established in 1970 - they've had 39 years to get it right; it is broke. Together Fannie and Freddie have now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.

The War on Poverty was started in 1964 - they've had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our hard earned money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"; it hasn't worked.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 - they've had 44 years to get it right; they are both broke; and now our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care.

AMTRAK was established in 1970 - they've had 39 years to get it right; last year they bailed it out as it continues to run at a loss!
This year, a trillion dollars was committed in the massive political payoff called the Stimulus Bill of 2009; it  shows NO sign of working; it's been used to increase the size of governments across America , and raise government salaries while the rest of us suffer from economic hardships. It has yet to create a single new private sector job. Our national debt projections (approaching $10 trillion) have increased 400% in the last six months.

"Cash for Clunkers" was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009 - - after 80% of the cars purchased turned out to be produced by foreign companies, and dealers nationwide are buried under bureaucratic paperwork demanded by a government that is not yet paying them what was promised.

So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that each and every  "service" shoved down our throats by an over-reaching government turns into disaster, how could any informed American trust our government to run or even set policies for America's health care system - -  17% of our economy?
Maybe each of us has a personal responsibility to let others in on this brilliant record before 2010, and then help remove from office those who are voting to destroy capitalism and destroy our grandchildren's future.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people under the pretence of taking care of them.   
                                                                                        -- Thomas Jefferson
 

 

[BIGTEX]

The government has the  "Midas" touch(except it turns to something besides Gold) with everything it has its hands in. Why doesn't Washington fix the economy before anything else??????? How the war going? Where's Bin laden? Remember when Bush gave everyone two thousand dollars. This President has done nothing but take and now he wants more.

 

[knabe]

all those programs are a complete success in several respects.  

votes, redistribution of profit, replacement of private jobs for government jobs with guaranteed benefits, dependence on government's elite class, consolidation of contracts/business to deal with the size of federal projects.  All these programs have done is consolidate at a faster rate than any company has ever done during the trust accumulation era.  there is no one to bust the government trusts.  this, all done under the general welfare clause.  really, what voters have done is break down all the roadblocks the founders put in the constitution, all in the name of general welfare.  since the only criteria for success is taking something from someone and bribing someone else with it in the name of general welfare, there is really no need to succeed in a traditional sense.  when you are mandated to take care of illegal aliens at your expense because of a lack of enforcement on the part of those who give out your tax dollars at a better general welfare than the people paying taxes, all you have to do is raise the tax rate above enough of a percentage of the population to get away with it as those who don't pay NEVER care where it comes from other than it isn't them, but they are fooling themselves creating unions to preserve buggy whip wages in a horseless world and rationalize it with musing speculating more buggy whips are sold today than yesterday, (but, hint, not on a per capita basis.)


here's some help on capitalism.    only by diluting capitalism do you promote failure, or general misery.

http://www.ideachannel.tv/

 

[JbarL]

all those programs are a complete success in several respects.  

votes, redistribution of profit, replacement of private jobs for government jobs with guaranteed benefits, dependence on government's elite class, consolidation of contracts/business to deal with the size of federal projects.  All these programs have done is consolidate at a faster rate than any company has ever done during the trust accumulation era.  there is no one to bust the government trusts.  this, all done under the general welfare clause.  really, what voters have done is break down all the roadblocks the founders put in the constitution, all in the name of general welfare.  since the only criteria for success is taking something from someone and bribing someone else with it in the name of general welfare, there is really no need to succeed in a traditional sense.  when you are mandated to take care of illegal aliens at your expense because of a lack of enforcement on the part of those who give out your tax dollars at a better general welfare than the people paying taxes, all you have to do is raise the tax rate above enough of a percentage of the population to get away with it as those who don't pay NEVER care where it comes from other than it isn't them, but they are fooling themselves creating unions to preserve buggy whip wages in a horseless world and rationalize it with musing speculating more buggy whips are sold today than yesterday, (but, hint, not on a per capita basis.)


here's some help on capitalism.    only by diluting capitalism do you promote failure, or general misery.

http://www.ideachannel.tv/

what do you think they had in mind when they constitunialy adopted the phrase " the general welfare of all its citizens" ?.....according to all your scenarios, this place would be a better place if the founders had just "left it out"//......what kind of welfare do you think they were talking about??...are there any "occasions" that the right can justify as general welfare?....

(per capita= dont forget the ever growing   s & m market...world wide...they just diversivied in the mid 80's...good strong market .. )  


all clique....no teeth..( as usual)                jbarl;

 

[knabe]

what do you think they had in mind when they constitunialy adopted the phrase " the general welfare of all its citizens" ?.....according to all your scenarios, this place would be a better place if the founders had just "left it out"//......what kind of welfare do you think they were talking about??...are there any "occasions" that the right can justify as general welfare?....

that the federal government had specific responsiblities and all else was left to the states.  

that way you could live in a state where there is no incentive and others like me could live in another state where there is an environment for commerce.  

all you have to do to see what happens with your system is to look at san francisco.  

it provided choice, rather than a dictatorship like you want to live in where everything you have is the federal governments, which, if you were consistent, you would do some things differently.

also,

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uoc--hps081909.php

Pro-labor policies pushed by President Herbert Hoover after the stock market crash of 1929 accounted for close to two-thirds of the drop in the nation's gross domestic product over the two years that followed, causing what might otherwise have been a bad recession to slip into the Great Depression, a UCLA economist concludes in a new study.

more buggy whip tom foolery.

"Hoover had the idea that if wages were kept high for workers and they shared jobs instead of being laid off, they would be able to buy more goods and services, which would help the economy improve," Ohanian said.  uh uh.  FAIL.  translation.  get a raise and do less work.  that's why socialism fails for everyone, rather than with capitalism where for the most part, bad ideas and bad workers fail.

"If you artificially raise the price of production, your costs go way up and you pass them on to the customers, and they buy that much less."


funny how your examples need everyone else's "excess" production to finance your ideas because they don't pay for themselves, something you do the opposite with in your's or anyone else's business.

at least be consistent.

 

[JbarL]

what do you think they had in mind when they constitunialy adopted the phrase " the general welfare of all its citizens" ?.....according to all your scenarios, this place would be a better place if the founders had just "left it out"//......what kind of welfare do you think they were talking about??...are there any "occasions" that the right can justify as general welfare?....

that the federal government had specific responsiblities and all else was left to the states.  

that way you could live in a state where there is no incentive and others like me could live in another state where there is an environment for commerce.  

all you have to do to see what happens with your system is to look at san francisco.  

it provided choice, rather than a dictatorship like you want to live in where everything you have is the federal governments, which, if you were consistent, you would do some things differently.

also,

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uoc--hps081909.php

Pro-labor policies pushed by President Herbert Hoover after the stock market crash of 1929 accounted for close to two-thirds of the drop in the nation's gross domestic product over the two years that followed, causing what might otherwise have been a bad recession to slip into the Great Depression, a UCLA economist concludes in a new study.

more buggy whip tom foolery.

"Hoover had the idea that if wages were kept high for workers and they shared jobs instead of being laid off, they would be able to buy more goods and services, which would help the economy improve," Ohanian said.  uh uh.  FAIL.  translation.  get a raise and do less work.  that's why socialism fails for everyone, rather than with capitalism where for the most part, bad ideas and bad workers fail.

"If you artificially raise the price of production, your costs go way up and you pass them on to the customers, and they buy that much less."


funny how your examples need everyone else's "excess" production to finance your ideas because they don't pay for themselves, something you do the opposite with in your's or anyone else's business.

at least be consistent.

agreeing that heatlh care is included  as  " the general welfare" in the preamble of the constitution....has been my consistancy from the start....it doesnt however imply i want to live in a dictatorship statee...your words not mine.....and as ususal .....more words from  fear and paranioa ...

every corporation needs workers......workers contribute taxes...corporations just pass it on

this isnt business.....its government....they taught us in school when i was young ....that the indians were savages and they all needed the killin' and justified geniocide they got....all in the name of amercia....and i believed it....till later we all found out different....i doubt that was a bunch of democrates that decided that was in the best welfare of amercia to kill em and move em out.....ask those real  "amercians" what they think......maybe if we would have given consideration to the gereral welfare of those who lived here when we got here??....jbarl

 

[knabe]

agreeing that heatlh care is included  as  " the general welfare" in the preamble of the constitution..(it's not)..has been my consistancy from the start....it doesnt however imply i want to live in a dictatorship statee...your words not mine.....and as ususal .....more words from  fear and paranioa ..no it's not paranoia. you keep forgetting to tell us how you are going to pay for it.  with open ended taxation and benefits, it by definition is a dictatorship since a dictatorship has no understanding or need for markets, they just want power to take from one and give to another and manage all markets to resolve inequities as they see fit rather than supplying a product to solve the problem.  they rely on other people's money and labor to garner votes or employ guilds to stay in power.
every corporation needs workers......workers contribute taxes...corporations just pass it on

this isnt business.....its government....they taught us in school when i was young ....that the indians were savages and they all needed the killin' and justified geniocide they got...(pretty much every society in history has done this, even the indians.  their name for themselves was "the humans", therefore it was ok to kill the non-humans.  this constant blame of the white man for all the worlds problems is racist as it singles out a group of people, when ALL people do it..all in the name of amercia....and i believed it....till later we all found out different...

.i doubt that was a bunch of democrates (the democrats were the slave holders)that decided that was in the best welfare of amercia to kill em and move em out.....ask those real  "amercians" what they think...they aren't real americans either, they came here and killed someone else (ask them, they are proud of it) and killed all the large animals and were basically an ecological nightmare for animal diversity.  if they  weren't so successful, maybe we would still have wooly mammoths and giant sloths and other large animals...maybe if we would have given consideration to the gereral welfare of those who lived here when we got here??..do you want to live like an indian or as you do today?..jbarl

 

[farwest]

There was a thread on here but I don't remember what it was under of why Americans are so against socialized health care, got an email today that I think pretty much sums it up.

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775 - they've had 234 years to get it right; it is broke, and even though heavily subsidized, it can't compete with private sector FedEx and UPS services.

Social Security was established in 1935 - they've had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938 - they've had 71 years to get it right; it is broke. Freddie Mac was established in 1970 - they've had 39 years to get it right; it is broke. Together Fannie and Freddie have now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.

The War on Poverty was started in 1964 - they've had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our hard earned money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"; it hasn't worked.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 - they've had 44 years to get it right; they are both broke; and now our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care.

AMTRAK was established in 1970 - they've had 39 years to get it right; last year they bailed it out as it continues to run at a loss!
This year, a trillion dollars was committed in the massive political payoff called the Stimulus Bill of 2009; it  shows NO sign of working; it's been used to increase the size of governments across America , and raise government salaries while the rest of us suffer from economic hardships. It has yet to create a single new private sector job. Our national debt projections (approaching $10 trillion) have increased 400% in the last six months.

"Cash for Clunkers" was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009 - - after 80% of the cars purchased turned out to be produced by foreign companies, and dealers nationwide are buried under bureaucratic paperwork demanded by a government that is not yet paying them what was promised.

So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that each and every  "service" shoved down our throats by an over-reaching government turns into disaster, how could any informed American trust our government to run or even set policies for America's health care system - -  17% of our economy?
Maybe each of us has a personal responsibility to let others in on this brilliant record before 2010, and then help remove from office those who are voting to destroy capitalism and destroy our grandchildren's future.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people under the pretence of taking care of them.   
                                                                                         -- Thomas Jefferson
 

I mailed a letter the other day, it reached it's destination a day later at a cost under 50 cents, my folks received their social security checks on time,   hmmmm

 

[knabe]

I mailed a letter the other day, it reached it's destination a day later at a cost under 50 cents, my folks received their social security checks on time,   hmmmm
[/quote]

A central bank that promises to finance too much government spending also loses control of the money supply. 

social security is broke.  health care under government control will have the same problem and cause inflation when there are too many claims and not enough payments because no one who makes under 80k a year will have to pay.  if you applied the payment scheme of the post office for health care where you don't get a subsidy to mail your letter, and you made people have a copay that meant something, you would get some control on demand for services, coupled with tort reform and reduced billing.

i don't know if the following is true or not since i haven't verified them but.

1% of the people cause 10% of costs for health care.
5% cause 25%
80% of costs is in the last 6 months
25-30 % is in billing
10% is in fraud on both the doctor and the patient
doctors hire some sort of nurse/doctor practitioner to fit under an umbrella for insurance purposes to save costs.
part of the problem is that the people who pay nothing have the greatest entitlement attitude for services and have no intention of ever paying anything.
part of the reason health care is cheaper in other countries is because they have little development costs and intellectual property protection.

try suing a doctor in mexico after a failed surgery.

read the reimbursement part of the health bill 2300.  NO ONE, and i mean NO ONE can understand it.  not even lawyers or your representatives.

i challenge anyone to explain it.  since you can't, that alone is enough for me to pressure my representatives to not vote for it.

 

[JbarL]

..do you want to live like an indian or as you do today?.[/color

the indians now or then?......they  all live on government money now....we didnt leave em much....they been gettin some " general welfare " for some time now...avg age of " residents "  not so good / alcohol  dependency galore..../ education levels terrible...sounds like capitalism gone bad to me.....somebody had to step in.....when the greedy get what they need .......everything/one else is expendable....history repeating itsself or learning from the past?....jbarl

 

[knabe]

..do you want to live like an indian (of any era) or as you do today?.[/color

 

[JbarL]

..do you want to live like an indian (of any era) or as you do today?.[/color

oh today of coarse....i wouldnt miss this for the world... ......i used to think of how neat it would have been if i was a young man in the 40's......then i realized i would have grown up a as a boy in the depression.....never forget how important it  is to know where your standing ( ole indian saying)
...jbarl

 

[knabe]

..do you want to live like an indian (of any era) or as you do today?.[/color

oh today of coarse....i wouldnt miss this for the world... ......i used to think of how neat it would have been if i was a young man in the 40's......then i realized i would have grown up a as a boy in the depression.....never forget how important it  is to know where your standing ( ole indian saying)
...jbarl

then you are the beneficiary of killing all those indians and reparations should be paid.  how much are you willing to shell out to remove your guilt?  remember, lots of people made lots of money during and after the depression if they didn't over leverage themselves.  but then, since you are a union guy, they lost out the most, so you need to retell that story over and over and not see opportunity, only failure.

 

[JbarL]

..do you want to live like an indian (of any era) or as you do today?.[/color

oh today of coarse....i wouldnt miss this for the world... ......i used to think of how neat it would have been if i was a young man in the 40's......then i realized i would have grown up a as a boy in the depression.....never forget how important it  is to know where your standing ( ole indian saying)
...jbarl

then you are the beneficiary of killing all those indians and reparations should be paid.  how much are you willing to shell out to remove your guilt?  remember, lots of people made lots of money during and after the depression if they didn't over leverage themselves.  but then, since you are a union guy, they lost out the most, so you need to retell that story over and over and not see opportunity, only failure.

you dont get rid of guilt like that....you learn to live with it......i had my chance to jump on the "management" side of my "labor" career ladder......i looked up and seen nothin' but aholes....it wasnt for me.....us unions guys did alot a work for alot of those corporations....someones got to do it.....all the indians worked...good enough for the indians....good enough for me....jbarsobie

 

[Jill]

..do you want to live like an indian or as you do today?.[/color

the indians now or then?......they  all live on government money now....we didnt leave em much....they been gettin some " general welfare " for some time now...avg age of " residents "  not so good / alcohol  dependency galore..../ education levels terrible...sounds like capitalism gone bad to me.....somebody had to step in.....when the greedy get what they need .......everything/one else is expendable....history repeating itsself or learning from the past?....jbarl

In my opinion, all you have to do is look to the Indian population to know that welfare doesn't work!  They live in America the same as we do, they have the same opportunity to accumulate the same as we do, it is just easier to depend on the government for something that happened to them a couple hundred years ago, sad if you ask me!  It isn't capitalism gone bad, it is welfare at it's worst.

 

[JbarL]

..do you want to live like an indian or as you do today?.[/color

the indians now or then?......they  all live on government money now....we didnt leave em much....they been gettin some " general welfare " for some time now...avg age of " residents "  not so good / alcohol  dependency galore..../ education levels terrible...sounds like capitalism gone bad to me.....somebody had to step in.....when the greedy get what they need .......everything/one else is expendable....history repeating itsself or learning from the past?....jbarl

In my opinion, all you have to do is look to the Indian population to know that welfare doesn't work!  They live in America the same as we do, they have the same opportunity to accumulate the same as we do, it is just easier to depend on the government for something that happened to them a couple hundred years ago, sad if you ask me!  It isn't capitalism gone bad, it is welfare at it's worst.

native amercians do not live int the same amercia as you and i do,......all you have to do is look at the indian population, and see what amercian genocide has created, ...welfare is the result ...not the cause........its kinda like the ugly ashtray my kid made me in the 2ned grade....it looks like crap...but it sits in the front room anyway...the  native amercians are a perfect example of what this country "did" in the past to those they felt undeserving of the amercias futrue ....and there are those who still think some citzens are undeserving of our democracy now....and of coarse there are also some parents who would simply tell there kid that there project looks like crap and make them march it straight to the trash, and do it again....jbarl

 

[knabe]

.and of coarse there are also some parents who would simply tell there kid that there project looks like crap and make them march it straight to the trash, and do it again....jbarl

more people would succeed and be off welfare if they were told that more often.  why should everyone get a trophy.  sadly, most people who are told their project was awesome will never experience improvement as they have already achieved the best they can do.  government welfare reinforces this.

 

[JbarL]

.and of coarse there are also some parents who would simply tell there kid that there project looks like crap and make them march it straight to the trash, and do it again....jbarl

more people would succeed and be off welfare if they were told that more often.  why should everyone get a trophy.  sadly, most people who are told their project was awesome will never experience improvement as they have already achieved the best they can do.  government welfare reinforces this.

so this place would be a great place to live if we kill all the remaining amercian indians/ get rid of everyone at the poverty level/ and teach our children that some people are just better than others cause there parents say so ?........nice friendly country ya got there....a bit to shelfish for my taste.....but just right for others....jbarl

 

[GoWyo]

I don't think knabe was advocating genocide.  I think he is referring to the fact that people have their "station in life," but are not necessarily stuck with that station.  I have friends that were born into a welfare situation and they pulled themselves up into a station they like better.  It was based more on desire and hard work than on any government program.  The key is keeping the government from getting in the way.  I think that brings us back around to whether it is a good idea to grow another government tit (public healthcare) poking through the fence that gets in the way of weaning.  That is what gets people wound up about this issue and the current administation (not saying that the previous one was a lot better either).

 

[Jill]

native amercians do not live int the same amercia as you and i do

Surely you're joking, they live in the exact same America we you and I do, with all of the exact same opporturinties!