Irish Whiskey

[Jill]

I noticed in Show Circuit that someone is opening up Irish Whiskey semen for 50/unit, anyone know what the deal is?

 

[chambero]

My guess would be that demand has dropped off dramatically due to his PHA status.  People use Irish Whiskey to produce breeding cattle.  He still has his place, but probably not at the $$ he used to bring.  $50 is still fairly high for semen on a Maine bull.

I'll still use TH carriers to produce steers because its so strongly associated with "the look" (at least until somebody comes up with something that does away with Heat Wave and his line). 

I don't mess around with PHA.  I expect others have the same policy.

 

[CAB]

That one is tempting. If I had some papered clean Maine females, I would try some of it with hopes of getting some clean Irish Whiskey daughters. May do it on some clean commercials.

 

[DLD]

Yeah, Don Coover told me a couple of weeks ago that he'd gotten a letter saying that they were putting it on the market at $50. The IW semen in the Exposure and in the other owners' sale (sorry, their name escapes me at the moment) was quite a bit cheaper last year, and I imagine they decided they'd be better off  (sell more dollars worth of semen) now to put it on the market at $50 than to auction a limited amount like they'd been doing. I'm guessing they might be thinking that it might spark some renewed demand.

 

[DL]

Interesting, even great hype, great promotion, great pictures, and great campaigns can't sustain a lethal genetic defect that can kill both the calf and the cow -  - there has been a lot of dumping lately - I couldn't run away fast enough (dog) (dog) (dog) and you couldn't pay me to buy IW semen  - not slander, just my opinion. The fastest way to get rid of a lethal genetic defect is to stop using carrier bulls - I think that is a reasonable approach

 

[aj]

I have had 1 pha positive calf. I still think there is a look to pha calves. I have heard otherwise on this board. This was a shorthorn deal thought through windstar. DL... I can't think of one vet that would approve the use of pha positive cattle. I respect your stand. 

 

[Show Heifer]

This is my VERY STRONG opinion, please don't read if your going to get offended.

I suspect they are "dumping" the semen at the "discounted rate" just to get rid of it. I suspect that their theory is if they can produce one champion, somewhere, ANYWHERE, then people will be willing to risk killing their cow to get that damn purple ribbon again. Unfortunately, some will bite the hook and will try it. Some will get the hook out, and will swim away, while others will be pulled to the shore, and left gasping for air.

As for carriers having that "look" well.......I just don't buy into that....there are too many good sires out there that are free to be  using carriers (again, in my very humble and strong opinion!). I look at PERCENTAGE of winners, not NUMBER of winners, when determining if a sire is "good".  There is a BIG difference!!!

And CAB, come on now....what the heck ya goin' to do with all those "great" carrier females?  :

Thought for the day: Why is it that some of the top producers in the country are stating they are no longer going to use carrier bulls, yet it seems perfectly fine for them to sell carriers (both bulls and heifers)  out of their carrier cows?  I figure if it is good enough theory for the fat goose, it should be good enough for the little chicken! Hmmmmmmmm

 

[DL]

I have had 1 pha positive calf. I still think there is a look to pha calves. I have heard otherwise on this board. This was a shorthorn deal thought through windstar. DL... I can't think of one vet that would approve the use of pha positive cattle. I respect your stand. 

(PS - this is strong too - if you are easily offended please don't read)

Careful aj - agreeing with me will cause an automatic free fall of karma and perhaps being accused of slander or worse!

I agree - there is a look to PHA calves - dead, bloated, with no lungs

OK - I know what you mean, and I don't know if there is a look or not - certainly many of the female carriers look androgenous to me - but we see a small percentage - only those that have that "show ring look" - the rest of them may be just common cattle

I think Gypsy's comments about the high percentage of carrier females that did not breed is very very interesting - if that turns out to be "real" ie that PHA carriers are less fertile than noncarriers it adds a whole other dimension to the idea recently promoted by a breeder (or is it JITs multiplier)  that the PHAC are the BEST cattle

I still find it interesting that people are selling tons of cattle with carrier genetics and carrier bulls and telling potential buyers they didn't test because they didn't use that many carriers (or whatever).....

You know SHow Heifer you and I don't agree about quite a few things and we still have civil conversations - it is quite incredible

Motto for the end of 2007 - Dump you PHA carriers now - you can always find another genetic defect to promote

 

[Show Heifer]

In my opinion and after much thought :

Someone who uses carriers is breeding to create one champion.
Someone who does not use carriers is breeding to create a herd of cows.

And with that....good night.

 

[DL]

In my opinion and after much thought :

Someone who uses carriers is breeding to create one champion.
Someone who does not use carriers is breeding to create a herd of cows.

And with that....good night.

I like it!! Excellent and AMEN - kinda like JITs breeders vs multipliers

anybody remember the Huntley-Brinkley report?

Good night Show Heifer

Good night Dragon Lady

(clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

 

[steermaker]

Can't say much more.  The "look" that I want is one that breathes, eats, and if a female, reproduces.  I believe that Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that."

 

[DLD]

Well, IW has already plenty of champions and high sellers for some people to be willing to use him. No doubt he will be used again and again on at least some of the cows that have already produced something special out of him. And some of that offspring - yes, including some of the good ones, are clean. No doubt some are trying to produce clean IW offspring the right way - by using him on tested clean cows, and testing the calves and sending the carriers to slaughter. I respect what those breeders are doing, but for my part if I want those genetics, I'll get 'em from the ones we already know are clean. But there's also no doubt there'll be others out there using it, just closing their eyes and crossing their fingers and hoping it'll work (if they even bother to do that). The question is, does marketing semen to the ones that are "doing it the right way" justify the use of it by those who don't?

As DL said, not using carrier bulls is the most logical and realistic way to eventually get rid of the problem. I think we're already seeing (at least in the Maine and Shorthorn breeding cattle, maybe not so much yet on the clubbie side) that most all of the new bulls being promoted are clean, and the few that aren't really aren't being well received. I think the same thing goes for bulls being sold for herdsires. I think though, that the carrier bulls that are already out there are going to have to run their course. I know their popularity is already declining, but they're gonna be around awhile longer.

I'm still arguing against PHA carrier cattle having a particular phenotype, aside from the coincedence that most of the carriers we're now familiar with are "showring friendly". Again, I think the idea that they do is dangerous from a couple of different aspects. If people truely believe they are phenotypically superior, then many people will continue to use them regardless of the consequences. Even worse, there are people who are convinced that they can identify carriers on sight, so they don't think testing is necesarry.

 

[OH Breeder]

maybe this is a stupid question, but did Irish Whiskey die or did they just take him off the market originally? For some reason that evades my memory.

 

[Jill]

I think he is still alive, it is called brilliant marketing.

 

[CAB]

  I don't think that the PHAC show a certain look that anyone can determine by looking @ them. SH the obvious choice for breeding great Carrier females is a tested PHA clean bull. It's not that difficult IMHO. Some of you have to agree that IW has sired some great cattle, just to play the devils advocate.

 

[CAB]

  P.S., DL, it is nice to see you back here posting IMO. Sorry for the hurt feeling. Cab.

 

[DLD]

I'm pretty sure he's still alive, too. It's kind of gotten to be a trend in marketing. The past few Exposure sales have been mostly built around Irish Whiskey (co-starring Meyer 734, I guess). They sell a select set of heifers and a few herd bull prospects out of him, and sell a set of amount of semen at auction as well. Up until now this (and the other owners' sales) have been the only place and time non-owners could purchase semen. It works great if the bull has enough impact to create significant demand, which IW certainly has.

 

[DL]

maybe this is a stupid question, but did Irish Whiskey die or did they just take him off the market originally? For some reason that evades my memory.

OH B - like many of the heavily promoted (now known to be carrier bulls) - they were either syyndicated or semen was available to select individuals - as I recall after the ad in the Voice where IW was described as a carrier the owners began offering semen at their sales. Hype and marketing and lots of "winner" pictures have led to the notion that you gotta use these genetics to win - no one ever shows those that end up in the feed lot or in the dead pile. There is selective presentation of the "facts" and buyers who want the purple have selective vision.

DLD - well said. I think breeders (vs multipliers) are steering away from PHAC bulls. I was pretty impressed with the SEK, AMAA promotion of PHAF bulls for commercial use - it appears that they (AMAA) finally recognized the potential for disaster in the commercial arena and they stepped up to the plate

CAB - not sure I have really returned - as you know this is a subject I am passionate about, but geeze I answered a question about ringworm (does it go away without treatment - I said it was self limiting - translation it goes away without treatment --- and guess what , I got slammed...so the planet air remains a titch toxic IMVHO) and not a nice place to visit

All recessive defects have unintentioned consequences - some good (in the case of Sickle Cell anemia trait and resistance to malaria) and some bad - wouldn't it be interesting if PHAC had sub par fertility - gotta love those 50K heifers that you can't get breed - now there is a purple ribbon to be proud of (clapping) (clapping)

 

[CAB]

  Yeah DL, I know you have to have thick skin. I do. Let it bounce off and go on. It's just our own, sometimes not so great opinions anyway. We need all the smart people we can get to visit here with. I deffinately come here with a thirst for knowledge and information. You know without the info that I get here on the planet & the other boards, I would not be able to make most of the breeding choices that I can now make with confidence, whether that is good or bad, and I am greatful to you & others that have dug in on the issues that effect us all. Like I said earlier I may play the devil's advocate more than I should, but I will continue to do so with confidence. That being said, I will not sell unknown or suspect stock to unknowing buyers period. So again, thanks for your diligence, Sincerely,Cab.

 

[knabe]

there are plenty of PHAF irish whiskey sons who are interesting.  i think the lowered price is simply free market and similar to most products, price it high in the beginning and then it tapers as credible competitors start to arive on the scene.  it's simply a revenue curve.  I agree with dl the fertility issue is, uh interesting to say the least.  i think we are just seeing the beginning of the transition to a new flush of show bulls.  i still think there is plenty to be known about the phenotype and what it is.  i love it when people start looking for and trying different things.