Irish Whiskey
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Jill
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No, we never flushed to Irish Whiskey, and it has nothing to do with carrier status. I am not sold on the fact that he would cross well with the cattle I own, so it hasn’t been financially prudent for me to even take that risk. If we ever did decide to flush that direction I actually am looking at Grizzly Rose as a free alternative to him. Normally most bulls will produce sons that are better than they are and the sons will take the spot light, there are a couple of bulls that have not been able to duplicate their successes, and at this point no free sons. IMO Irish Whiskey and Heat Wave are 2 (am I’m sure there are others) that will continue to be used even though they have defects until they produce a free son to replace them.
I guess I would be what would be what you all call a multiplier with no “herd”. I make no bones about the fact that I am chasing the purple ribbon, that is what my business is and to imply that there is something wrong with that isn’t really fair. A sale barn calf at my house is a wasted year and a loss of money, I applaud all of you that do commercial cattle, but that doesn’t mean you put more thought, time or heart into making decisions about a herd and I really resent the implication that because I don’t sell commercially that I don’t care about this breed. We love Maine Anjou cattle, our herd consist of past show heifers almost exclusively, we raise cattle so that my children can afford to show, and they would just as soon have a purple ribbon as a white one, it doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with my decisions, they are just different than yours.
As for the highland cattle, I don't know that much about them, but they are adorable! You might look for some feeding trials, someone made a comment they don't put on fat like other cattle and that may help in keeping them cooler. Hair is an essential part of the clubbie world and if you can add the hair without adding the heat that would be a big plus.
I guess I would be what would be what you all call a multiplier with no “herd”. I make no bones about the fact that I am chasing the purple ribbon, that is what my business is and to imply that there is something wrong with that isn’t really fair. A sale barn calf at my house is a wasted year and a loss of money, I applaud all of you that do commercial cattle, but that doesn’t mean you put more thought, time or heart into making decisions about a herd and I really resent the implication that because I don’t sell commercially that I don’t care about this breed. We love Maine Anjou cattle, our herd consist of past show heifers almost exclusively, we raise cattle so that my children can afford to show, and they would just as soon have a purple ribbon as a white one, it doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with my decisions, they are just different than yours.
As for the highland cattle, I don't know that much about them, but they are adorable! You might look for some feeding trials, someone made a comment they don't put on fat like other cattle and that may help in keeping them cooler. Hair is an essential part of the clubbie world and if you can add the hair without adding the heat that would be a big plus.
CAB
Well-known member
Jill, DITTO to your 2nd paragraph. My thoughts exactly with one thing to add. I to also admit to chasing purple and have great respect for those that can do it constistantly. It is very hard. Sometimes I think about going back to trying to raise great commercial cattle, but the thrill of victory and agony of defeet still tug on my heart. I love to dream still, and I love to dream about cattle. I mean it's an addiction. ( Darn these boards).LOL. The thing that I wanted to add was that when I was a kid, I think that I got my full share of white ribbons. I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. It's what you do about it that really matters. If you never want a white ribbon, don't put yourself out there. Do they still make white ribbons? I think that judges are doing us all a disservous by not using them when needed. Can you imagine what the people on the boards would say then!!!!! It's part of what is wrong with our society. Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, My Space pages, out of control high school kids and college kids acting out for attention for actually being awful. Last, but not least, I do sometimes get offended by the thoughts that we/I don't care about cows/cattle because, yes I will use both genetic carriers.
Frostback does not get my dander up. I just wish that he would be a little more considerate of peoples feelings when replying, and if that can't happen, I wish that the ones he does get to would please just leave it alone. Sure it's just like entertainment tonite or access Hollywood, but come on.
Frostback does not get my dander up. I just wish that he would be a little more considerate of peoples feelings when replying, and if that can't happen, I wish that the ones he does get to would please just leave it alone. Sure it's just like entertainment tonite or access Hollywood, but come on.
Jill said:
Jill - KUDOS to you - you know what you want and you go after it - seem to me you do it honestly and with foresight - I don't see that there is any issue and I can't imagine why you wouldn't sleep well at night (unless it is your turn to check heifers or there is a kid with a cold) - I hope those kids get those purple ribbons and I am sure they will get all the good stuff Jara Settles mentioned in the last Voice - DL
PS it certainly doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your decision nor does it mean that there is anything wrong with mine ;D
knabe
Well-known member
cornbread said:
SRU
here's the reference to "here's your sign". basically he's just saying i'm stupid and that he hates stupid people. little does he know that stupidity is the foundation of our civilization and that blunders stimulate progress. failure is the basis for success. the term "here's your sign" basically is to flame someone without them knowing it because they are stupid. what's really intersting, is that most successful products take advantage of stupidity. it's actually a well researched field. some call it human factors. exact quotes added for searching for those who are generous enough to give people signs. ;D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/09/do0905.xml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upXayzBPuzM
CAB
Well-known member
Show Heifer, are you sure about the not being able to clone from semen? When you put it like you did, I say well OK that does make sense, but doesn't that sperm cell have all of the bulls DNA, none of the Dams DNA, and will when joined with the cows DNA, have a new sequence. I do think that you are right, but just think if you could have a clone from sperm. Everyone would have a Meyer 734, IW or whatever, if they could foot the cloning bill. Please enlighten me. I'm a little slow thinking. Cab
knabe
Well-known member
you can't have a clone from sperm. during meiosis, the sister chromatids are duplicated, crossovers happen and you have segregation.
so if you were Aa for something, after meiosis you would either send a A or an a to recombine with an A or an a from the other sex. now you could theorhetically double the haploid, but this still wouldn't be a clone as you would either be aa or AA at every locus and this would be different than the original individual. even if you found a somatic cell, ie a non-haploid cell, non-germ line cell (sperm, eggs), when you made a clone, you would still be using the cytoplasm from a donor cell where all the mitochondria are and would therefore have that mitochondria of the donor cell and basically the inability to duplicate that machinery though the genes in the nucleous to make the mitochondria proteins. probably too complicated, but to me, clones aren't really clones, just closer to the original than just using one complement. now if you were homozygous at every loci, which nothing is, perhaps then you could have a clone. to me, linebreds are better than clones, after test crosses of course, to eliminate defects. but hey, that just takes too long. (not really). it might take longer than useful for tax purposes. kinda like television shows. there is a reason they usually don't last after 7 years, that's how long the contracts are for, then you can renegotiate.
so if you were Aa for something, after meiosis you would either send a A or an a to recombine with an A or an a from the other sex. now you could theorhetically double the haploid, but this still wouldn't be a clone as you would either be aa or AA at every locus and this would be different than the original individual. even if you found a somatic cell, ie a non-haploid cell, non-germ line cell (sperm, eggs), when you made a clone, you would still be using the cytoplasm from a donor cell where all the mitochondria are and would therefore have that mitochondria of the donor cell and basically the inability to duplicate that machinery though the genes in the nucleous to make the mitochondria proteins. probably too complicated, but to me, clones aren't really clones, just closer to the original than just using one complement. now if you were homozygous at every loci, which nothing is, perhaps then you could have a clone. to me, linebreds are better than clones, after test crosses of course, to eliminate defects. but hey, that just takes too long. (not really). it might take longer than useful for tax purposes. kinda like television shows. there is a reason they usually don't last after 7 years, that's how long the contracts are for, then you can renegotiate.
CAB - this is what I know - I am sure there is more but -
to clone you need all the chromosomes - consequently you would need to start with a cell that has all those chromosomes - to take Meyer it would be a "somatic" cell that got half the chromosomes from his mom and the other half from his dad - skin, liver whatever
semen only contains 1/2 the whole # of chromosomes - whatever he Meyer would donate to his offspring
There was some talk that some semen contains cells that were sluffed off (ie somatic cells that line the pipeline from where the sperm are produced to where they exit that fell off during collection) that may have ended up in the semen and since they contain all the chromosomes they could be used to clone an animal
I don't know if that is a rural cowboy legend or true but that I think is what people are saying
I guess I have looked at a lot of semen when doing BSE's and never seen much other than sperm except occasionally cells when there is an infection - this of course isn't collectio nfor freezing but I would imagine there would be some standards - after all we don't follow the same regulatory rules that they do in China (woops there's another magnet in that straw ;D)
to clone you need all the chromosomes - consequently you would need to start with a cell that has all those chromosomes - to take Meyer it would be a "somatic" cell that got half the chromosomes from his mom and the other half from his dad - skin, liver whatever
semen only contains 1/2 the whole # of chromosomes - whatever he Meyer would donate to his offspring
There was some talk that some semen contains cells that were sluffed off (ie somatic cells that line the pipeline from where the sperm are produced to where they exit that fell off during collection) that may have ended up in the semen and since they contain all the chromosomes they could be used to clone an animal
I don't know if that is a rural cowboy legend or true but that I think is what people are saying
I guess I have looked at a lot of semen when doing BSE's and never seen much other than sperm except occasionally cells when there is an infection - this of course isn't collectio nfor freezing but I would imagine there would be some standards - after all we don't follow the same regulatory rules that they do in China (woops there's another magnet in that straw ;D)
OH Breeder
Well-known member
CAB said:
Reproductive Cloning
Celebrity Sheep Has Died at Age 6
Dolly, the first mammal to be cloned from adult DNA, was put down by lethal injection Feb. 14, 2003. Prior to her death, Dolly had been suffering from lung cancer and crippling arthritis. Although most Finn Dorset sheep live to be 11 to 12 years of age, postmortem examination of Dolly seemed to indicate that, other than her cancer and arthritis, she appeared to be quite normal. The unnamed sheep from which Dolly was cloned had died several years prior to her creation. Dolly was a mother to six lambs, bred the old-fashioned way.
Reproductive cloning is a technology used to generate an animal that has the same nuclear DNA as another currently or previously existing animal. Dolly was created by reproductive cloning technology. In a process called "somatic cell nuclear transfer" (SCNT), scientists transfer genetic material from the nucleus of a donor adult cell to an egg whose nucleus, and thus its genetic material, has been removed. The reconstructed egg containing the DNA from a donor cell must be treated with chemicals or electric current in order to stimulate cell division. Once the cloned embryo reaches a suitable stage, it is transferred to the uterus of a female host where it continues to develop until birth.
Dolly or any other animal created using nuclear transfer technology is not truly an identical clone of the donor animal. Only the clone's chromosomal or nuclear DNA is the same as the donor. Some of the clone's genetic materials come from the mitochondria in the cytoplasm of the enucleated egg. Mitochondria, which are organelles that serve as power sources to the cell, contain their own short segments of DNA. Acquired mutations in mitochondrial DNA are believed to play an important role in the aging process.
Dolly's success is truly remarkable because it proved that the genetic material from a specialized adult cell, such as an udder cell programmed to express only those genes needed by udder cells, could be reprogrammed to generate an entire new organism. Before this demonstration, scientists believed that once a cell became specialized as a liver, heart, udder, bone, or any other type of cell, the change was permanent and other unneeded genes in the cell would become inactive. Some scientists believe that errors or incompleteness in the reprogramming process cause the high rates of death, deformity, and disability observed among animal clones.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,627251,00.html All the cloned animals
Can only use somatic cell to clone.
Any cell in the body other than the reproductive, or germ, cells. In mammals, somatic cells are diploid, meaning that they have two sets of chromosomes. In contrast, germ cells are haploid, meaning that they only have one set.
http://www.cyagra.com/geneticpreservation.htm
cloned full flush
shorthorns r us
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knabe said:
i know exactly what he was saying. i am sure you understand my message to him; i only hope that he understands aswell.
CAB
Well-known member
Thanks all of you brillant people. I totally understand now. It takes longer for some of us.LOL.
Telos
Well-known member
CAB said:
CAB... you may want to be cautious, breeding for this single trait. The day might come when everyone decides that all this hair may not be such a beautiful thing.
Saw the other day, a cattle breeder having a sale rated hair on all their sale bulls from a 1 to a 5 with 5 be the the best. The cattle, with the ability to slick their hair in the summer the best were given the top ranking of 5. Research shows that cattle with the ability to slick their hair were healthier, better doing, and out performed other cattle that do not have this ability.
shorthorns r us
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Telos said:
that would have been Kit Pharo of Pharo Cattle Company in Colorado. He specializes in low input genteics. about 400 forage tested bulls averaged over $3900. they sold a boat load of females the day before for good money.
CAB
Well-known member
Hey if you noticed, I'm the one that said it takes a little longer for some of us, if you'll look back a post or 4. I don't think that hair is all that important unless it's a cold hard winter, but the sculptors and evidently most livestock judges either do or can't see through a great clip job. Which do you all think it is?
Hair - if you want to create illusion, fix faults, sculpt the perfect bovine they you like hair.
I have a friend who says there is not such thing as too much hair. He is a bovine artist
For me there can be too much hair - I have half a dozen Maines that I slick shear every spring and clip close fall and (yup) winter - they might loose it on their own but I don't have the patience to wait - too much hair.
I have a friend who says there is not such thing as too much hair. He is a bovine artist
For me there can be too much hair - I have half a dozen Maines that I slick shear every spring and clip close fall and (yup) winter - they might loose it on their own but I don't have the patience to wait - too much hair.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
DL said:
After this past summer of temps in the 90s+, growing hair is a job and an art. Unfortunately it is part of the "show world". I give folks alot of credit that can do it.B-cuz it is hard to do and takes alot of time and work.
My reason for looking at the Highlanders is something clean as an option for calving ease and potentially a new cross that has some hybrid vigor. I know there are a lot of "calving ease" sires out there, but this would be something different.
Telos
Well-known member
CAB said:
Sorry CAB, Didn't mean to pick on ya!
Show Dad
Well-known member
Wow! 
Now I have heard it all. Clubby owners complaining of to much hair. ???
Amazing! ;D
Now I have heard it all. Clubby owners complaining of to much hair. ??? Amazing! ;D
Show Heifer
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First off, thanks to all the brains who explained by "can't clone by semen alone" statement before I had too!!! That is why I run around with smart friends!!! (clapping) (clapping)
As far as hair goes...well, there is always such a thing as too much of a good thing. And it all depends on what your operation is and what its goals are. I call those hairy calves "create a calf", due to the fact you can hide darn near anything with some "fluff and stuff".
And remember also, that marketing research usually proves what the researcher choses it to show. Pharo cattle company is marketing very small frame (like a 3.5 mature bulls) grass fed type cattle. Some folks around here have made the trip to CO and bought bulls only to find their feeder calves were to short stature for the buyers. And resale on a 900 pound 3 year old bull isn't much! But, they seem to have found their niche and that is great! Just like clubbie breeders have found a niche for small hairy cute calves. I do know my hairy shortie suffers in the summer, but she (so far) gets bred and survives.
And yes, growing hair is an art. Just like clipping and creating a calf. Just like feeding one to its potential! And not to start the arguement, but show cattle are like race cars. Yes, they are similar (commercial cattle vs. cars you and I drive) and yes, they rely on each other, but they are totally different worlds!!
As far as hair goes...well, there is always such a thing as too much of a good thing. And it all depends on what your operation is and what its goals are. I call those hairy calves "create a calf", due to the fact you can hide darn near anything with some "fluff and stuff".
And remember also, that marketing research usually proves what the researcher choses it to show. Pharo cattle company is marketing very small frame (like a 3.5 mature bulls) grass fed type cattle. Some folks around here have made the trip to CO and bought bulls only to find their feeder calves were to short stature for the buyers. And resale on a 900 pound 3 year old bull isn't much! But, they seem to have found their niche and that is great! Just like clubbie breeders have found a niche for small hairy cute calves. I do know my hairy shortie suffers in the summer, but she (so far) gets bred and survives.
And yes, growing hair is an art. Just like clipping and creating a calf. Just like feeding one to its potential! And not to start the arguement, but show cattle are like race cars. Yes, they are similar (commercial cattle vs. cars you and I drive) and yes, they rely on each other, but they are totally different worlds!!
Show Dad said:Wow!
Amazing! ;D
EASY SHOW DAD - The very very very last thing I am is CLUBBY - if I didn't think you were such a swell guy I would be insulted! My goal is GREAT COWS - the wolly mammoth hair is just an added cosmetic issue - just like having to spend time evey day to create the illusion of illustrious shiny shimmering flowing toss to the wind hair on myself - another sacrifice for function and beauty!
(clapping) (clapping)