Is he stout enough for you?

[justintime]

JIT you really don't need to apologize you had a bull in a sale-it sounds like you described him in terms of your environment-but if thats him pictured right off the trailer-(NOT 3-4 MONTHS LATER) then he doesnt really look too sporty and if you had known at that time I think some kind of restitution would have been in order.-DEPENDS how much time elapsed-THATS THE KEY  XBAR-it seems like a few years went by before you came unglued-and I do remember you making positive comments on here about the bull-although thats a lot of threads ago.So I guess my questions are old news and the same as everbody else's--I have a few cattle left in Southern Kansas and the environment is VERY similar with similar results lost on several--The bull didnt work-the SP statute of limitations is certainly up: AND-you have a Canadian bull that DID WORK-although Im guessing from a somewhat different environment- Sometimes just gotta move on when you didnt strike while the iron was hot.. O0


I do not know when the pictures were taken that Ryan has posted. The first picture was taken here in January prior to our March sale. The bulls then went to the sale and then came home and went back onto the same feed as prior to the sale. I do not stuff my bulls as we want them to be sound and athletic. My bulls have been fed the same ration now for several years. When we pictured our sale bulls two weeks ago, the photographer, who pictures bulls all across Western Canada commented that our bulls were in perfect condition. I could care less about maximum gains but I do like to get enough gains to be able to test the bull's ability to grow. That is why I weigh them every 28 days so I can talk intelligently about the growth patterns of different bulls on the same ration.  I delivered this bull to South Dakota where I met Ryan's partner in this bull. I am not sure exactly when the bull arrived at Ryan's farm. He may have told me, but I can't remember when. The bull did NOT look anything like this when I last set eyes on him in SD. In any event, Ryan seemed pleased enough when he got him, at least he made no mention to me about not being pleased.
Ryan seems to think that because I mentioned that Cruiser ran on bush pasture that I am exaggerating or lieing. The only reason I mentioned this is because he did actually on a pretty rugged pasture for this part of the world. It was 70 miles east of where I live and is was 125 miles from his owners farm. He was pretty much on his own in that pasture as far as looking after himself. That is the only reason I said what I did.
I debated not even replying to Ryan's posts and I wouldn't have even bothered to, but I felt that I needed to respond when he made reference to my honestly and reputation. That is where I have to draw a line.
I have no idea why Ryan got some unacceptable birth weights from this bull. Sometimes, genetics seem to make everything unclear.  I used a BW trait leader in the ASA sire summary on a few cows a few years ago. I got 2 bulls and 3 heifers. The 2 bull calves were assisted at birth and both weighed over 110 lbs at birth. I band every bull calf over 110 lbs and these two bulls were the only two that got banded at birth. There was nothing in the background of either dam that suggested I would get big calves. I dumped the rest of this semen and moved on. I can't explain why this happened.
I am not angry with Ryan. I just wish he had handled this situation better. Why did he decide to vent on a public forum, and not contact me directly? Why am I just hearing much of this now for the first time, when a few years have passed since I sold the bull to him. Enough said!

 

[CAB]

As far as speaking on a public forum is concerned, I think it's the realty of the world that we now live in. Social media!! It seems people say things that they never would have thought about saying to some one 20/30 years ago. It's bad and I'm afraid going to get worse. Some restraint would go a long ways in quite a few instances IMO. We've all had cattle that didn't perform like we had wished or planned on. I think it's part of the challenge of evaluating different types of cattle. One of the reasons that there are so many different types of cattle is because of all of the different environments that we put them into.

 

[idalee]

Interesting how things change!  Just for fun,  I went back to March 2014 and read the comments from XBAR on the first Vanguard calves -  "these Vanguard calves are in a completely different league.  More substance,  more eye appeal,  extremely vigorous at birth .  .  .  a big shout out to JIT for breeding such a quality bull.    He's looser structured,  soggy bull w/ a huge  hip and that's exactly what the commercial type shorthorn needs. . ."    What happened?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Interesting how things change!  Just for fun,  I went back to March 2014 and read the comments from XBAR on the first Vanguard calves -  "these Vanguard calves are in a completely different league.  More substance,  more eye appeal,  extremely vigorous at birth .  .  .  a big shout out to JIT for breeding such a quality bull.    He's looser structured,  soggy bull w/ a huge  hip and that's exactly what the commercial type shorthorn needs. . ."    What happened?  WELL DONE  Idalee-you found one of the threads I mentioned: that would surely be one year or close after the bull got to Texas which would make it  almost 5 years ago that he showed up  <rock> <party> O0

 

[NJM]

Mark I did the same thing and this one struck me as a contradiction to X-Bar's comments also.

"I'm pretty big on the calves myself.  They are really growing great- Most importantly, I'm thankful for steer planet as if it weren't for the Suncountry bull sale topic I saw, I would have never ran across the bull.  So far he has done exactly what I've wanted/expected and I look forward to seeing the calves mature.  I'd really like to breed him to my brangus/commercial cows too to make some American steers for here in TX but he has more than enough workload for him w/ the Shorthorns.  I turned him out on May 18th last year as a 15th month old bull with 24 cows on a 133 acres and they started calving 2/9 and finished 3/24.  No sync protocol or anything just turned him out.  I am very pleased such a short calving season."

JIT I would not respond to anymore on this subject. It is funny how the story changed!!!!

 

[shortyjock89]

What a joke.

 

[RyanChandler]

Interesting how things change!  Just for fun,  I went back to March 2014 and read the comments from XBAR on the first Vanguard calves -  "these Vanguard calves are in a completely different league.  More substance,  more eye appeal,  extremely vigorous at birth .  .  .  a big shout out to JIT for breeding such a quality bull.    He's looser structured,  soggy bull w/ a huge  hip and that's exactly what the commercial type shorthorn needs. . ."    What happened?

No denying there were some exceptional calves..  I've never once denied the quality of the calves, not once...well the ones you could get out that is. I pulled 6 of the first 16 calves which he is absolutely aware of and then about every other one thereafter that season. There was only 2 bull calves that first season I didn't pull.  That number more than doubled the following season.  I assure you I have the wherewithal to have went back and deleted these posts if this was some type of conspiracy.  Again, I had spent what I thought was a lot of money at the time and was very excited. I continued to make excuses for the bull- change of environment, putting him with 3-4 yr olds, didn't shave him when he got here, etc.  I took all the responsibility for the first year's issues and, because of the breeder's continued claims of never having any issues like these, I wrote it off as my inexperience with these genetics.  If only I would have known the birthweights and calving ease issues I was dealing with weren't the exception but rather the norm.

The final straw wasn't until I bred him to those brangus cows I mentioned.  After accepting that I couldn't sussessfully breed him to Sh cows without having to be there all the time, I put him in with a group of mature fall calving cows.  I keep records on all my cows.  Calves were coming out of cows that had averaged 78-83lb calves over 5 years were now coming at 105, 112, etc. same shit I experienced with the SHs.  When 7yr old cows are laying down dying because of dystocia, you then realize there's a bigger issue at hand- The "95lb" sire that was born "a little early-"  Considering the avg bw I had out of bull calves was over 95lbs 1600 miles South of there,, one can only speculate as to just how "late" he was.  I even sent him a picture of one that was 143lbs that I pulled with a a come a long in a creek bottom.  Never once will you hear him admit this. Never once was there any response other than stating that these weren't typical results.  Now 5 years later, we know this isn't true. I've talked to other breeders using these same genetics. There's a CLEAR CONSENSUS by all except the one breeder.

We've all had cattle that didn't perform like we had wished or planned on.

Absolutely.. I've bought cattle from all over the country-  some terrible, some great.  I agree that's part of it--  I'm not looking for any type of financial recourse and damn sure don't want another bull from there-- my only continued frustrations stems from the breeder continuing to blow sunshine up people's ass as far as how these cattle are raised, and what their intrinsic strengths and weaknesses are.  That's it..

 

[NJM]

Here is another contradictory statement after Vanguard's first calf crop from X-Bar. It just shows that you better remember what you posted on social media before you start to Rant and Rave 3 years later. It most definately is a Joke.

"So I finally finished up calving- half bulls, half heifers.  I have been extremely happy with the calves so far.  Birth weights have been ranged from the smallest a 72lb heifer and the largest a 94lb bull calf.  I have used 3 different JPJ sons, a Tsunami son, a Bonanza son, a Dover son --- I've tested the water and so far-- these Vanguard sired calves are in a completely different league.  More substance, more eye appeal, and extremely vigorous at birth.  Im somewhat indifferent but for those looking to brighten things up, he does throw a good bit of color.  I've had calves all 5 recognized Shorthorn colors so it's been a good mix.  Just thought I'd share a few pics and give a big shout out to JIT for breeding such a quality bull."

I'm done.

 

[shortyjock89]

1. So what if the bull has been fed? I've seen bulls come back in really nice shape from grass but then their calves max out at 850lbs and don't make anyone any money.

2. Grant doesn't raise cattle for me to buy, but you surely can't make a decent living selling breeding stock your whole life by being a huckster.

3. Ryan is trying to do his own thing, which is hard to do. Maybe he's got some good cows, I have never seen very many of them. But he is really confident in what he knows and doesn't have much room for other people's input on certain subjects in my experience. 

I'm not sure what all goes into buying bulls from Canada to bring to Texas, but I can't imagine it is a deal that works out more than it doesn't. I know I won't do it because I can't trust BWs and growth patterns from either 1000 miles north or south of me and with wildly different management styles. AI or ET is a little different, but we do best when we use bulls that we know for sure are suited to our needs.

 

[aj]

Where is thunder down under and the father daughter posters from Canada.......and frostback? They used to tag team and defend JIT till the death. I miss those days. Grin.

 

[oakview]

JIT needs no defense in this case.  X-Bar has done a magnificent job of "defending" him through his previous posts.  No real reason for this thread to continue.

 

[RyanChandler]

Yea because no amount of conflicting results after an initial review should be weighted.  You seem to have confidence in the accurate representation of these bulls.  Put your money where your mouth is then come talk

 

[beebe]

Yea because no amount of conflicting results after an initial review should be weighted.  You seem to have confidence in the accurate representation of these bulls.  Put your money where your mouth is then come talk

Just for kicks and what if, had you bought that same calf as an embryo and raised him your self, do you think that would have made any difference in how the bull performed?

 

[cedargrove]

I think steerplanet is a great forum to discuss our successes and maybe some failures.... but I don't think it is the place to drag someone's reputation through the mud.  We have all bought animals that have exceeded expectations and I am sure we have bought animals that have not lived up to expectations. But this thread seems to be a pick on Grant day, I will have to wade in-- in regards to his reputation. Before his 2014 sale, I emailed Grant with questions on 4 or 5 bulls and I asked him if there was any other bull that he thought might work in my program. He suggested that 27A was just a nice complete bull, always looked good, but not exceptional,(but he was off a 1st-calf heifer). He was down fairly well in the sale order and we ended up buying him. I am in the process of getting his 4th calf crop. His first daughters have calved and they have picture-perfect udders with ample milk.  His calves come almost always unassisted (I have helped a couple of times because I wanted to go to bed). As a 2yr old, he bred 26 cows in 16 days (he settled 23 of them).  So, to conclude, I bought this bull site unseen solely on Grant's recommendation and I have not been disappointed.