Is this true?

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Gargan

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XBar, im well aware of the "people " that live off of the system in this state, I don't need you looking it up for me, but I do see these people everyday with great benefits (taxpayer money), talking on there gov provided cell phone, and selling there food stamp debit cards for 50 cents on the dollar to generate cash. This is all just a part of the problem and when you grow up, you'll understand... lets hope. im done on this thread.  <deadhorse>
 

mark tenenbaum

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I guess it depends where you are-I know down near Logan WV you could get blown into microscopic bits sometimes right near the surface-or if you penetrated the bottom of a high wall ( similar to augering) Under alot of older mining areas like Grundy (Va) Beckley etc-there is so much gas that alot of those old mies have been on fire for years-too bad that permanent energy source couldnt be harnessed some way. Mike Rossi has made a plie of money just tapping sometimes 30 feet into abandoned deep mines for the surface methane-and theres been gas for years bleeding out of Kentuckey-West Va and Western Md-so I guess I dont really know what infrastructure you are referring to.Fracking is going on further north (PA)-along with some serious longwall miners-that shake stuff up a half mile above them.And Id have to agree-fracking is a death knoll to the eco msystem in general -probably way worse than mountain top removals. O0
 

knabe

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If energy is our death knell, why do we want to increase demand by increasing our population?

The easiest way would be to license fertility/longevity through Obama care and lower our population by 200 million.

Environmentally it's irresponsible to reproduce above replacement.
 

Mueller Show Cattle

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I can really care less what you think, we all know you think your the smartest on the forum, your a google guy we all know that including you. We could train a monkey to do what you do with using a search engine. I agree with Gargan, you like to run a topic till its like beating a dead horse. I don't care what you think, might show you can search information and stats but you still act like your in high school.
 

knabe

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oops.  at the risk of reading.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57594498/study-finds-fracking-chemicals-didnt-pollute-water-ap/

A landmark federal study on hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, shows no evidence that chemicals from the natural gas drilling process moved up to contaminate drinking water aquifers at a western Pennsylvania drilling site, the Department of Energy told The Associated Press.

at least not yet.

on the other hand

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57590888/methane-found-in-pa-drinking-water-near-fracked-wells/

seems like we should find a way to harvest methane.
 

knabe

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-XBAR- said:
My whole hangup with this argument comes down to this:  Every single time that I get into a face to face argument with someone about this, and I ask the person where they are buying their health insurance, I get the same damn answers.

1)  I am a veteran so I get free health care.  Thank you for serving our country, BUT what about the rest of us.  I am paying for your health care, can you please at least have an open mind for the sake of my kids?

2)  My wife is a teacher so we get health insurance through the teachers union.  Once again, the tax payer is subsidizing your insurance premium.

3)  I work for Huge Company X, so they pay for my health insurance.

4)  OK, so you think that Obama is such a moron...what is your genius idea?  Of course they never have an idea.  Just that Obama is a moron.  Hell, most of them don't even realize that this issue isn't even really his issue.  This is just unfinished business from the Clinton Presidency.  Hillary Clinton tried to overhaul healthcare with everything she had when Bill was in office and simply ran out of gas. 

It is always the same thing......It doesn't effect me, so screw you.

I should probably post these comments on the message board and not be a coward.  I just don't want to get into a political argument with anyone.  It is about all I can handle to stick with show cattle.

i actually agree with this whole post, can we piss together?
 

RyanChandler

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Perhaps if it were so easy, you could google how it is that my tax dollars subsidize your va benefits. Or how it is that my tax dollars subdidize your childrens public education. Or wait, perhaps you can be a google guy too and find out how it is that my tax dollars subsidize your heath insurance through the social security administration. You haven't even a clue about that which you speak out against. Based on your recipient status- you're the socialist.


Knabe, you got me. 
 

knabe

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-XBAR- said:
Knabe, you got me.

it didn't start with clinton.  it really started getting going with fervor with wilson, some with teddy, then in earnest with franklin.  after that, most were so desensitized that no one notices anymore.  the war on poverty has only made it worse, but no one has the determination to see why.  they would rather think i am against them, which i'm not.  for some reason, pointing out hypocrisy usually ends in death.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Energy isnt a death knoll-its the forms of extraction-like fracking and mountain top removal:eek:r the refusal to even attempt reasonable use where the air or environment are not poisened.Natural gas will -As far as people reproducing:I dont think natural gas or fracking is part of thier decision,if there is one at all.Attemts to reduce reproduction in this country are shouted down as an Obama terrorist threat-so WHICH SIDE OF THAT FENCE ARE YOU ON? AND HOW OLD WAS OBAMA IN THE 70s-when the debates and bills were first introduced?It also looks like everyone is a communist or a hypocrite,because everyone is subject to some form of subsidy:as stated several times..If you dont totally follow one idea-then you are "this". The only black and white I see are cool baldies with some chrome.Problem is:the only two communist countries above the toilet seat are Cuba and North Korea-both abysmal police states. And thier people starve and live in what could be a form of abject slavery. In most cases-there is no parralel between what our govt. does,and thier "philosophy" at all. O0
 

knabe

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-XBAR- said:
Knabe, you got me.

It used to be that if you worked for the government, you took a lower salary in exchange for job security and lifetime benefits.

Now, the pay is better, the retirement more still with more job security. Many government workers don't really have all that great a retirement, but too many have way too high benefits.

The left talk about caps all the time. How about a cap on retirement at say 100,000 year for starters. There isn't anyone that can't live on 100k in retirement, let alone during their workIng years even in silicon valley.
 

hamburgman

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knabe said:
-XBAR- said:
Knabe, you got me.

It used to be that if you worked for the government, you took a lower salary in exchange for job security and lifetime benefits.

Now, the pay is better, the retirement more still with more job security. Many government workers don't really have all that great a retirement, but too many have way too high benefits.

The left talk about caps all the time. How about a cap on retirement at say 100,000 year for starters. There isn't anyone that can't live on 100k in retirement, let alone during their workIng years even in silicon valley.

Sounds like class warfare here.

Envy is an ugly color to wear.
 

knabe

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hamburgman said:
Sounds like class warfare here.

Envy is an ugly color to wear.

Exactly. Where the government gets paid more, gets more benefits for less work with no negotiation on behalf of those who pay their salary.

Why should a senator get lifetime benefits after one term?

I call that class warfare. 

Class warfare is exacerbated when you can vote yourself other people's money.

The public sector is envious of the private sector and found a legal means to have elected officials unionize them and negotiate on their behalf against the public who pays both their salaries. 

Yes, envy is an ugly color and the public sector sure is envious.  Now that they've got their cake, they yell class warfare at everyone but themselves.

Yet more hypocrisy. Of course its too hard to see.  Its more imporrtant to continue to pay or receive more than recognize and address the problem.

These types of discussions clearly illustrate the difficulties of undoing an unfair tax system, removing subsidies, tax breaks, leveling the playing field.  The number of penguins keeps growing at the cliff.  You can bet no penguin will jump off, so the whole cliff is going to collapse under the weight of all the penguins.

 

aj

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Detroit has filed bankrupcy. California is next. The Liberals have run both these entities into the ground. They own these two deals.
 

knabe

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aj said:
. They own these two deals.

No they dont.  Their political enemies do. They have to pay for it. While the left goes and injects their virus in new places. 

No one will understand this is an organized strategy until they read marx.

But of course reading is too hard and it sometimes occurs on the internet, so even if a book is available on-line, reading it online invalidates the contents from discussion and one becomes a googler and has no credibility. 
 

Mueller Show Cattle

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I love hearing all you people, I pay your salary, I pay all this stuff by paying taxes, so I pay taxes also, so I pay my own salary and everything else you mention. I would be willing to say that you pay less than a cent of anything I get. VA benefits, I collect nothing as I did not retire from the military and anyone could figure that out by looking at my age, health insurance is paid for by me and my Police Department, schooling has been paid for by me so far as it has just been preschool as my oldest starts Kindergarten this August, so you have paid nothing to this point, even when she starts school you would pay less than a cent on anything I get. So around and round we go.
 

knabe

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This issue at least for me is not typically the rank and file.

For me, the issue is retirement should be for retirement, not concurrent earnings.

The upper echelon are out of control.

Here is just one example out of thousands. I apologize in advance for posting a google link as scanning the same information from the printed newspaper wasnt available. 

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-political-commentary/2011/08/54-double-dipping-chicago-cops-tip-of-the-pension-abuse-iceberg/#.Ueq00BB5mSN

A significant portion of detroits liabilities are pensions. What should be done?

47 % of its remaining citizens are functionally illiterate.  We need something more than change we can believe in.  We need results we can see. 
 

mark tenenbaum

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Detroit went from something like 1.8 million people to 600000-and those who cannot escape are literally wards of the state surrounded and basically trapped by drug dealing murderers. It's probably one of the most dangerous places this side of Bahgdad. It is so bad-that it has been proposed by a developer to turn blocks of abandoned buildings into some sort of horticultural endeavor :maybe hanging gardens?. I guess that would provide productive hard labor jobs for the pants on the ground pimp slapping crack heads who only make $500-1000 per day standing on corners:and doing the thug life.  The auto industry is doing very well-It just moved on to cheaper pastures.And those auto workers who got displaced,must have left too. Doesnt sound like a liberal decision to me:and as for the causes of the recession-thats an endless loop. O0
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Sounds like Detroit better get Robocop on the horn. Or throw up the bat signal.  Can you imagine how much of a pain in the ass teaching the gangbangers to grow food? Oh my.
 

knabe

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liberal decisions tend to reinforce labor agreements which tend to stymie innovation.

then companies move on and the union blames the company.

sort of like the buggy whip analogy

the issue i have with retirements is simply this.  for most rank and file including military, police, and at least half of government workers, is that they gave up a higher paying salary to work for the government in exchange for job security and lifetime benefits.  i'm actually ok with that.

where it becomes a problem is with the upper echelon and government carving out benefits for themselves above and beyond that.  when general's retire, they don't really need protective retirement benefits like people who retire at e9, as they can easily get a job in the private sector typically for more money, while the e9 can not.

we have lost site of the idea of what the protective retirement was set up for.  it wasn't set up to double, triple dip, transition to a higher salary, often in the same line of work for a different city, with transition retirement benefits to supposedly attract the "best" talent.

i am FOR a reasonable retirement system for public employees.  i am NOT for a lucrative golden parachute retirement package beyond what the plan was set up for in the first place.  a way to reward people for choosing to work for us, the taxpayer.

the retirement system shouldn't be set up with incentives for abuse where trustees can bribe their way to riches, have meetings in hawaii and live beyond the intent of the retirement system for public employees.

everyone probably has relatives who perform public service and hold them in high esteem as do i.  unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to rein in the abuse and extravagant payouts to those at the "top" who shouldn't have any reason to get a pension beyond the original intent of the pension in the first place.

we have lost our ability as a society to teach our children to save for their future.  once they have been desensitized to that "reality", it is too late, as once they reach 40 or 50 when they see the destruction it causes, they haven't provided for their future and are behind.
 
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