Kicked to the Curb (or Pasture)

[chambero]

I'm still in a bad mood this morning from a show this weekend.  For those of you that want to argue that use of certain tranquilizers is a hideous offense, I offer an example of why it is done.

We haven't gotten to show much this year due to construction of a new house, but my 8 year old son and I (plus the rest of the family) did get to spend lots of time at the barn on his calves (2 steers and 1 heifer on feed).  We raise lots of calves ourself, but intentionally kept the number of calves on feed for him small to allow plenty of time on each.  All were completely halter broken early in the year and worked with throughout.  He can/could handle them just fine at the barn. 

His heifer was a very good Kadabra heifer we raised.  We had taken her to three previous shows and she did very well - breed or reserve breed champion at each.  He problem is she doesn't really like being a show heifer and she doesn't really like my son.  She "bonded" with my wife and is very aloof toward anyone else.  She has never gotten away from any of us in her whole life, she just has a "gripey" attitude.

Our last show was back in October where she delivered a well placed foot stomp on my son's foot in the Champion drive.  She was tired and didn't want to be there.  He made it through the selection process, but limped out in tears with a big bruise.  I guess she decided that was fun.

We went to another show this weekend.  I sent him in for showmanship at the start of the show.  This was his first time in the ring with her without "help".  She was just fine for about 10 minutes then decided she'd had enough.  She started slinging the head and when that didn't work, she went for the foot stomp move.  She got him again.  But he stayed with her till she decided to escalate.  I had looked off for a second, but the judge racing toward him caught my attention.  She head butted him and knocked him into the corner of the ring and then proceeded to hit him in the chest multiple times with her head trying to get him to turn her loose.  The judge and I were on her about two seconds later and luckily he wasn't hurt.  I led her from the ring with my son walking beside me.  He sobbed "Dad - I didn't let go."   I threw my arm around him and told him he did just fine. 

About six hours later she had new brands on both sides and her hairy hiney kicked to the pasture with the rest of our heifers.  She kind of looks funny all woolly and clipped up compared to the rest of them.  And perfectly content to be a pasture animal again. 

But that is the difference that a little "help" can make and why people do it.  It is actually a disadvantage in the ring because it relaxes them to much, but it can certainly help a kid out with animal with an inherent mild attitude issue.

Our show year is ending with a fizzle.  His steer for the majors bloated and died back in November and now the heifer has been ejected from the barn.  Oh well, time for next year.

 

[kanshow]

I hate it when things go like that....  been there...     

 

[Show Heifer]

You admited the heifer (with an "inhert attitude and gripey attitude") didn't "like your son but bonded with your wife", and that the heifer had hurt your son before, so my question to you is: Why didn't you "kick her to the pasture" sooner, rather than risk getting your son, or someone else hurt again?
Don't take this wrong, but is a ribbon really worth your sons tears, a possible lawsuit (if she hurt someone else), and the fact your son may not like to show anymore?
I stand behind my personal choice not to agree with tranq use in show cattle. And I will stand up for rules to prohibit such use.

By the way, my Dad always told me to let go....NO ONE, regardless of size can hold an animal if they want to get loose!

 

[justme]

I too have a young one showing...I understand where you coming from.  Sounds like she in like the character "Sybil"  with different personalites.  I wish ACE was legal too.  We go for the experience not just a ribbon.  If just to take the edge off and ease "MY" mind it would make me feel better.  Even the tamest calves get on edge we all know that.  I feel for ya!  I would have been a wreck.  Thank goodness he didn't get seriously hurt. 

I vote with you...

 

[chambero]

When is the last time you actively worked with a kid on a daily basis with a show calf for any period of time?  You seem to have a very difficult time in relating to how things really work in regards to both kid and animal behavior and the show ring in general.  I mean this as a serious question because I get the impression you just don't know.

You've made the mental leap to a potential lawsuit from my reference to a "gripey attitude" and one foot getting stepped on.  That is not a jump a normal person makes.  There are a whole lot of people that don't post on these boards because a small group of you love to pounce on anyone that asks real world questions.  There is a big difference between being informative and being a horse's ***.  And anytime you have to say "don't take this wrong", you really do mean it as an insult.

First of all, if every animal that had stepped on a kids foot was immediately removed from the show barn we would have very, very small shows.  That doesn't constitute a safety risk.  After rereading, I think my original post accurately portrayed the fact that this heifer was not a "crazy one".  This isn't a case where we did all the work for my son.  He is the one that handles her almost all the time.  She just doesn't respect him like she would someone larger.  She hasn't ever been nor was she a threat to anyone else even in her latest show.  She just got pi***d that day as my son puts it and took it out on him.

And obviously I didn't think putting him at risk was worth a ribbon by my reaction to the situation.

You haven't successfully taught many kids nor have you been around many people that show much if you think you don't have to teach a kid to hang on to a calf.  You can't get a fat lazy Hereford to show if it learns it can get away easily let alone a good animal that knows its good.  

You admited the heifer (with an "inhert attitude and gripey attitude") didn't "like your son but bonded with your wife", and that the heifer had hurt your son before, so my question to you is: Why didn't you "kick her to the pasture" sooner, rather than risk getting your son, or someone else hurt again?
Don't take this wrong, but is a ribbon really worth your sons tears, a possible lawsuit (if she hurt someone else), and the fact your son may not like to show anymore?
I stand behind my personal choice not to agree with tranq use in show cattle. And I will stand up for rules to prohibit such use.

By the way, my Dad always told me to let go....NO ONE, regardless of size can hold an animal if they want to get loose!

 

[justme]

Chambero...until someone is the actual parent of a little one showing one doesn't understand in my opinion.  Take a deep breath and take it for what the comment is worth. 

I can only imagine the disappointment your son felt.  Our heifer (who is a pussy cat)  had an attitude with our daughter during a class.  My heart about jumped out of my chest.  It was her 3rd show and she was still pretty nervous.  I could kick myself still for not calf calming her "just in case".  She did that head tossing thing and my daughter of a whopping 68 pounds held on for all she was worth.  We were lucky, Delilah never did it again, but I still feel bad for not taking a precaution.

Chin up buddy....I'm with ya!

 

[red]

Chambero, you did alright by your son. My red heifer last year was a delight until she came in heat. Then she was the devil himself. I was always taught not to let go, still believe that. It's a totaly different thing when you talk about it on the computer & it happens to your own child. You did fine.

Red

 

[CAB]

Chambero, I don't know if it may help or not, but when my middle daughter was 9 she had her first steer and he got to where he knew he could bully her. He wouldn't do it to any of the rest of us larger people, so I found a short piece of 1in pipe and handed it to my daughter and explained to her that it had to be her to take care of the problem. The calf was totally broke, not wild, just very smart, and my middle girl has a lot of piss and vinegar. It took 1 good rap on the nose to cure the calf's habit. Don't know if it's something that may help you and your son or if it's cow time for the heifer, and IMO, there's not one thing wrong with a few good spilled tears. It shows that he cares and that he has compassion and wants to please and compete. Life lessons are sometimes hard to take, but have to be learned to make a better person. Good Luck, I know that you will do what's best for all.

 

[CAB]

Red, what did you mean by "the devil himself"? I always thought it was the devil herself. Have I been mistaken all this time?

 

[chambero]

I told him the judge probably remembers him more than the kid that deservingly won showmanship.  I think it scared me more than it did my son.

My wife teared up like everything when we kicked her out in the pasture.  She was a member of the family like all show calves wind up being with us.  It was hard to do, but my son would have been worried about her trying that again on him if we ever showed her again.  And if an animal senses that, you've lost before your start.  We are fortunate to be in a position to just turn them into a cow instead of being stuck with them and having to get rid of them at a big loss.  She just gets a head start on doing what she was made to do.  

I'm still mad at her though.  It's also easier to deal with this as a heifer than a steer.

You have to protect your kids, but you have to let them learn tough lessons also and you can do a lot of damage by trying to be too safe.  My son may think he's learning too many of those lessons this year though.  He played football for the first time last fall.  I made a point to be at his practices when they first started hitting.  His second practice he was having to block the best player on the team who in the next grade up.  My son caught him not looking and "blindsided" him with a good block.  Unfortunately for my son, that kid didn't make that mistake again.  Next play, my son put a pretty good hit on him and then let up before the play was over.  The kid literally turned him upside down and tossed him aside.  About the third time in a row of that and my boy looked over at my trying to fight back tears.  I told him "You better figure something out or I'll have to call an ambulance.  He's doing what he is supposed to!"  It was one of those definitive moments for a parent when you have to make your child stand on his own without your help.  To his credit, he sucked it up and made through practice and the season.  By year's end, he was the only kid on the team that could block that older kid.  And that older kid takes up for my son now because he respects him.

Same difference with calves.  Only you have to step in a little bit when you are dealing with 1000 lb heifers instead of 100 lb peewee linebackers.  My boy didn't quit which is all I care about.  Ten years from now I'll be more proud of him for how he handled himself Sunday than on days he wins.  And I'll probably still be griping at that cow that is nursing her ninth or tenth calf about the stunt she pulled back in the day.

 

[CAB]

Amen Chambero. When you can be as proud of the kids in how they take loss as you are of when they win, you've taken a big step in making a man out of that boy.

 

[frostback]

So sorry to hear about that. I am in the same situation. We bought a heifer that has been through a sale and went to a show already. We then took her to another show. I can do anything with this heifer. My daughter gets a hold of the heifer and she starts dancing. She does not try to get away just wont show well. My kid had a cast on her left hand the first time she had to start working with her which did not help because she just did not have the strength to hold her right. We are still working with her but the heifer acts totally different with us. Actually I went out to feed this morning and she was bloated BAD and hopefully we can make it to another show with her. Remember not all chase the ribbons but do this for family bonding and life lessons. The good and bad both. The hours we spend with these animals is many and to say just kick the ones with a small attitude out is not a easy decision to make. After weigh in there is no getting a new project and it is the difference of getting a reward for what you put in or giving up. I dont give up easy neither do my kids.

 

[Jill]

I know where you're coming from and back your decision 100%.  My son started out the year last year with a heifer we had raised, she was shown as the calf from his bred and owned cow calf pair and then became his show heifer, needless to say by the end of the show season we took a good ripping because all she had to do was lift her head high enough and he didn't have a chance of holding on, was she mean heavens no, he is back at the stall laying on her and loving on her, she was just playing and having fun and I wasn't about to tell him he couldn't show her because she had gotten too big.  We made a deal with my son that if he lets go we get the prize money and if he keeps ahold of her he keeps the prize money and that seemed to give him an insentive to do his best to hang on.  I believe these kids are a dying breed, and everything we can do to support there interest needs to be done!

 

[red]

Red, what did you mean by "the devil himself"? I always thought it was the devil herself. Have I been mistaken all this time?

maybe Dr Jekle & Mr Hyde? all I know was that she was a puppy dog until she came in heat, then she became a terror. I was so glad the got her bred quickly.
You just never know how they're going to react. A tame heifer/steer at home can just change at a moments notice. It sounds like they worked w/ her a lot & felt she was ready to go back in the ring.

Red

 

[Show Dad]

And I only thought this happens to my kids. They work so hard at working with the calves and then something like this happens. My son was having a confidence problem until one show I pointed out a more "experienced" kid being drug through the barn by his steer. It seemed to lift a burden off his shoulders to know it happens to every one.

C - You might try a donkey on her before you let her go to far out in the pasture. I have seen a donkey work on the attitude problems before. And I wouldn't have you son around when you do it.  But when she returns to the barn let him give her a treat then wash, blow and comb her. I would then spend the next few days with a schedule that ties her up for a few hours a day with him working her followed by some good daily care then free for the night.

If she show any sign of attitude back to the donkey. After a few times if its not working, I wouldn't send her to the pasture, I would cull her.

 

[garybob]

Was always my experience as a Junior exhibitor during the "Framey '80's" that NOTHING brings a heifer into the PMS-like symptoms of a Heat Cycle faster than: a Trailer ride, a leather halter, and a show stick, all used in conjunction with a Loud-speaker and a $40-dollar entry fee.

GB

 

[chambero]

I wouldn't even begin to put any elementary school-aged kid on something that needed a donkey to break.  

Our standard routine is to wean about 20 babies a year for show purposes.  Out of those 20, one or two will be what I consider "wild".  These go right back to the pasture for a future home in a feedlot.  I don't even want to sell those kind to someone else.  

"Gripey" is how I best define this one, not wild.  A big kid could win a showmanship with her.  She was an "automatic" as far as setting up and leading goes.  I could set her up just with pressure on the halter.  Didn't even need a showstick.  She knew what to do and would do it for an adult.  She just didn't respect my son.  I really don't think its any different than some adults that just don't like kids.  

She'll be fine as a cow.

Thanks for the supportive comments.  I just wanted to gripe about it this morning.

 

[DLD]

Chambero, I've been there myself, many times. For what it's worth, I agree with you completely.

Another thing that many people don't seem to realize is that some kids just struggle with it more than others. Please understand that I'm not implying that Chambero's or anyone else's kids are this way, I'm saying my oldest is. He's been showing since he was 4, he loves animals, and he's not afraid of them. He spends more time with his show calves than most kids, and he works hard at it. But he's not a natural born showman, not one of those people that animals just naturally bond with, not completely at ease in the showring -he has to work hard to make it all come together. You wouldn't know it now, after 10 years he can hang with the best of 'em, but for what seemed like a long time, he could take the gentlest calf in the world out in the ring and half the time it'd look like the calf was at best half-broke and the kid had never seen the calf before. His doctor (who's son also shows) says it his A.D.D.  Whatever the case, more than once other people have said (not directly to us) that obviously that kid never works with his calves, they're never well broke, etc... It's really frustrating  to hear, whether directly or indirectly, in person or online, someone who obviously does not really know your child or their calf or the situation tell you that they just shouldn't be there.

 

[CAB]

Hey SD, I did not say to beat the calves with a pipe and we never have and never will I just tried to tell what worked for a 9 year old girl trying to get the respect from a 1100+ lb steer. He was not wild ,but knew that he could have his way with an 85lb girl. I don't appreciate your off collar remarks and it's part of the reason that people get sick and tried of this board.CAB

 

[Show Heifer]

I knew this was going to happen.....all of a sudden I am this awful, niave, closed minded, "not in the know" witch that since I have chosen NOT to have children, I "just don't understand". Guess what? I don't have ONE child of my own, I have about 25 youth in 4-H/FFA. I have about 10 kids I tutor, and I will not let any of them handle a calf that has behavior issues. And I will not let any of them use tranq's. If they do, out they go. And if their parents question that "rule", out they go.
I make the lawsuit leap due to our county fair. Several years ago, a steer got away during weigh in when the fair wasn't even officially open to the public. An elderly lady got ran over, and injured. Not seriously, but broke her arm and got scratches and bruises. Guess what? That cost the fair board/ and fair about $250,000 and the family of the steer another $350,000. Didn't matter the calf was " broke". Didn't matter there is an inherit risk. Didn't matter the family paid for medical expenses. Didn't matter the public wasn't suppose to be there. BUT.....it did matter that the calf had been tranq. Why? Because that was like the owner and fairboard "knew" the calf had the ability to hurt/injure and/or cause pain to a human. It was a done deal after that. Kinda like the "beware of dog" sign. That means the owner KNOWS the dog might bite.
I showed limi cattle between the ages of 5 and 18. I showed other breeds, but I think all would agree limi's can be a hand full. My Dad taught me to let go because he didn't want to see me getting drug around the ring, down the road, etc. I'm not talking about just dropping the lead at any little jerk, but darn, if your kid can hold a 1200 pound calf that is running, I want to eat what they are!!
I showed my share and if they were "gripey attitude" (or whatever you want to call it) they stayed home till they weren't gripey or they were shipped (head cut off, not passed along to unsuspecting family).
So please, don't tell me I "don't know", or "don't understand".
And CAB, I completely understand your "pipe" theory. Sometimes a bit of "discomfort" can really set the mind straight and gain respect!! And yes, I believe in spanking children too. I guess I'm going to heck.
So I guess it goes back to "personal choice" I made in my first post. If you can get the FDA, USDA and the Vet Assoc to put a label on ace, thorazine, etc, that says "use x cc's in a calf for exhibition purposes" and "slaughter withdrawl is xx days" then it is illegal. I don't care if everyone is doing it. Everyone is getting a divorce, having children, shoplifting, and I have chosen not to do those things also.  I guess I am just not a good follower.

But, chambero, do not think for one minute I don't feel sorry for your child getting hurt. I am sorry to hear that. Glad it wasn't serious. 

That's all I got to say about this.