Kicked to the Curb (or Pasture)

[Show Dad]

DL - Happy New Year and it is good to hear from you. It is comments like yours that keep this board fresh.

I too have not listen and have tried not to pass this along to the kids. Are rule is at any time the kids don't feel in control to either take them back to tie or hand them to me to do so. It's their call. I find it hard not to try and push. But I need to work on listening to the kids too.

Every family needs to make their own rules but your advise to listen should be a part of it.

 

[renegade]

I know exactly what you mean DL. That is the reason we get about half of these rescue horses in, people just dont get it. They cant understand why the horse wont do certian things or they cant understand why they do do certain things. And instead of figureing it out and listening to the horse they try and "fix" the horse through abuse, starvation, etc. and then the animal comes to us.  We asses the problem(s) and if there hasnt been too much damage done the animal becomes a good riding horse or companion or pet. Nine times out of ten we are able to easily place a "mean, dangerous, stupid, ect." horse with a loving family. Then we teach the new owner the horses past and if there are any problems and how they should handle the horse so that there arent any problems in the future, if there is a problem or they need to get rid of the horse then they inform us first and we go from there. Us humans need to get a clue sometime, we arent all powerful and since we cant manhandle a large animal we shouldnt level the playing field with cruelty, and we just need to listen to and respect these animals.

Also i have seen parents put their daughters on barrle horses or pro reining horses so their daughter can win a rodeo queen title. Well the girl is scared of the horse and cant control it and it therefore endangers the horse, the rider and everyone else in the barn. Its ridiculous

 

[red]

Good point DL. I think that is one reason my cattle, dogs & even cats a better around me than others. I try to take the time to listen to them, get to know them & realize what their mood is at that moment. I have often said to try to react to the animals mood rather than your own. It's easy to strike out at a calf in anger rather than to take the time to figure out why they just what they did. To clarify that statement I'm not saying anyone struck the heifer or anything like that, just a general statement.
I didn't read Chambero's messges again but not sure the heifer was Ace the first time?
Thanks for a thought provoking post. as usual it's easy to look at just one side but better to try to look at the animal's side too!

Red

 

[SKF]

DL has a very good point. I grew up in the dog show world so spent most of my life showing and training dogs until my kids got involved in show cattle. When we first started with the cows I did not give much thought to their differnt personalities until we had a bad one. Thats when I started to look at them like I do the dogs. Cattle are herd animals and in a herd they have their order. every cow has it's place in the herd from the top cow to the bottom cow and when we take them out of the herd and raise them for show we become part of their herd. It is important that we are above them in their pecking order and just as with dogs it is hard for small kids to be in the top position. When ever we had a litter of puppies we would temperment test them to see which ones we more dominate and which ones are more submissive. The dominate ones usually make the better show dogs but the ones who were more submissive made better family dogs because they don't mind having small kids being above them. It is important to learn their behavior and match the right calf with the right kid. When you first start working with your calves you need to look for signs of trying to be dominate such as walking ahead of you  walking right up on you, push you around at feeding time. If you ever watch a herd of cows the dominate cow always walks ahead of everyone else, pushes up along side of the other cows and is the pushiest when it comes to food. Plus they almost always shove the smaller ones around and alot of cattle as well as dogs they do not respect small kids. I have seen so many times at a show a really small kid in the ring with a steer that is just dragging them all over the ring and then the parent gets a hold of the calf and it walks fine. I am not real crazy about really small kids showing but if you find the right calf it can work. My daughters first show steer was a shorthorn steer who did not have a care in the world. She use to ride him like a horse and we use to let a friend of ours young daughter use him for peewee showmanship. He was not a show stopper but my daughter and all her friends had the best time with him. I don't think there's any mean animals we just need to understand their natural behavior. I wish that in 4H and FFA they would teach more animal behavior not just halter breaking, grooming and feeding. They are smart animals and you can see that if you understand why they do the things they do.

 

[Diamond]

Personally to me the temperament of an animal is more important then its conformation, and if you have to drug an animal it doesn’t deserve to be in the ring. We may hate to admit it sometimes, but showing cattle is a youths sport, and as adults we strive to supply the best animals to those kids whose dreams drive them to compete. Though it seems many now at days strive only for that sacred grail which is dubbed 'Style,' you also need to consider the repricutions when you breed for that trait alone, and personally to me anyone who breeds aggressive animals for the sake of a ribbon need to consider revamping there breeding program. It may fill the breeder with enjoyment to know that there animal won at a major show, however do you have the gull to take it to hart when you have produced a dangerous animal, or will you simply brush it off your shoulder? Really, ask yourself how enjoyable is it to show when you have to worry about the child who’s at the end of that halter?

I had one of them great heifers a few years who was undefeated in her age group at 9 different shows, I had countless individuals approach me interested in purchasing her and the sky seemed the limit for this heifer, she was just breath taking and no doubt one of the best show heifers I have owned. This heifer however, would never stepped foot in a ring again, why, because she had a nasty habit of pinning you in the corner and attacking, she would continually strike and charge. She didn’t make it to breeding pasture, instead she was sent strait to the packer. Could I have sold her for a small fortune, yes, but I refuse to produce animals that need to be hit with that needle so it can walk in that ring.
I agree, children should learn lessons in life, but using drugs to solve a problem wisent one of them.

 

[Show Heifer]

Diamond - Its folks like you and your breeding program that give me hope for the future!!! Keep up the good work!! (clapping)

 

[DLD]

First of all, I completely agree that some cattle are simply to wild or mean to be shown. I've turned a couple of them out myself, and I absolutely won't buy one either. Whether for my kids or anyone elses, it's simply not worth it - Chambero has said the same thing. I won't tolerate one that kicks or head butts or is otherwise aggressive, or one that is always trying to get away. But...

It's unfair, in fact unreasonable, to assume that every time an animal acts up, it's because someone (the parents ?) is trying to make a youngster show an animal that is unfit (temperment wise). Most of us, especially those of us that have been doing this all our lives, are pretty good at reading cattles personalities, and knowing if they're workable or not. We learn what they like, and what they just tolerate, and what they won't stand for, and we try our hardest to help the kids learn it too. And we try our best to keep them comfortable and happy. But in the end, we send a 600 - 1300# critter out into the world with a kid that may weigh 60# on the other end of the halter. We work ours, and the kids, and the cattles butts off to try to make sure they're a bomb proof combination, prepared for any eventuality that we can imagine. But it's still a kid (aka - an immature human being) and a calf (no matter how gentle, still a large animal), and some sight, some sound, some smell can be unexpected enough to trigger an unexpected behavior in one or both of them. Kids get nervous in the show ring (some more than others), and cattle sense it - sometimes it makes them nervous. Another heifer in heat, or another animal acting up can set them off, too.

 

[frostback]

I had one of them great heifers a few years who was undefeated in her age group at 9 different shows, I had countless individuals approach me interested in purchasing her and the sky seemed the limit for this heifer, she was just breath taking and no doubt one of the best show heifers I have owned. This heifer however, would never stepped foot in a ring again, why, because she had a nasty habit of pinning you in the corner and attacking, she would continually strike and charge. She didn’t make it to breeding pasture, instead she was sent strait to the packer. Could I have sold her for a small fortune, yes, but I refuse to produce animals that need to be hit with that needle so it can walk in that ring.
I agree, children should learn lessons in life, but using drugs to solve a problem wisent one of them.

[/quote]
The contradictions in that paragraph,  First you showed a heifer that was mean, and you continued to show her to champ 9 times but then decided not to breed her. Why did she not go to the packer the first time she acted up if you are so moral. Why because you liked the winning. You took champ awards away from someone else who may have had a heifer that could of gone on to breed and may of had a better attitude.

 

[rmbcows]

Diamond, your post makes me quite sad.  If you had shown that heifer 9 times, I suspect she wasn't the she devil you claim she was to begin with.  I've seen show animals turn mean and the common factor always seems to be because of the way they are handled.  I'd hate to think you condemned a heifer as nice as you say this one was to slaughter because something done to her by someone caused her to fight back.  I'm not accusing you of anything, but could something like that have been the reason she got mean?  Wouldn't it have made sense to disclose your problems with her and let someone else have a try at her?  There have been several heifers in our show string that others had given up on.  A little TLC goes a long way with the cattle I've been around.  I'm going to also have to disagree to a certain extent about passing on temperment.  After flushing the tamest cow we've ever owned... I'm talking comes up to you in the pasture to get you to scratch her, to the point of being a pest ... and having half of the resulting calves being nut cases, I'm not too sure how inheritable disposition is.  Some of our "wilder" cows have had some of our tamest calves.  Just from the information in your post, (I realize that's probably not the whole story) it just seems like a terrible shame to have sent that heifer to slaughter.

 

[renegade]

I wouldn't say attitude is necessarily heritable but i would lean toward modeled. I have a filly who's mother was not mean at all but she was raised with her mother and an older gelding that is grumpy sometimes and will lay his ears back when you climb on the fence, he isnt mean and neither is the filly but she has the same habit of laying her ears back when you climb on the fence. I agree with diamond that i wouldnt have a mean animal in my herd. I will probably be doing alot of the work my self and i dont want to have to worry about getting pinned on the ground or charged by a heifer in a field with no one around. I know that on the "how commercial are you" post most of the members who replied said the same about the cow that would charge with a calf. I dont think a ribbon is worth it. If it was some kind of trama because of me or because of something that happened she would get a second chance but if it was just the animal i would be hard pressed to keep it.

 

[chambero]

"Too Wild" for the showring and "too wild" for the pasture are two very different things.  Any animal that can be halter broke at all is certainly gentle enough for a pasture cow. 

Attitude in calves is certainly heritable, but there are a whole lot of things that come into play to make the outcome very unpredictable.

We don't keep wild cows.  Life is too short.  Our definition of wild for pasture cows is anything that acts like it might "get after you", runs through the working lots, or won't stay in the feed line in the pasture due to being too spooky.  You can't be too quick to rush to judgement on an animal.  Anytime it experiences something knew they may react in a wild manner.  Heifers after calving are notoriously extra spooky for a while immediately after calving.  They have all kinds of hormonal changes going on, are figuring out how to be a momma, etc.

I wonder how something that could be shown nine times is too wild for a cow?  That being said, we had a bull several years agp go "crazy" while being fertility tested.  The vet lost his cool and made the situation several orders of magnitude worse by very unprofessional handling in inadequate facilities that allowed the animal to escape close confinement.  You could tell immediately that bull would never be the same.  We barely got him back in the trailer without us getting someone seriously hurt.  Once we finally got him loaded, he got a trip straight to the sale barn.  It was so bad I had to get on the roof of the trailer to let him out so that he couldn't get me. 

 

[char]

I have read your first post and have read through quite a few of the responses that people have given....I'm not sure why some are getting so stroked up about this....you are being an honest person...and I relate to exactly where you are coming from.....my middle daughter is 10...in her first year of 4h she had her calf picked out since the day it was born and his name was Romeo....I was so excited...she is more petite than my older daughter and she wasn't as smitten with the cattle as my oldest daughter...well then in September when Romeo would have been 6 months old...he had a ruptured bowel and died....mind she had been rinsing him and he was broke and he was her first baby she was going to show in 4h...how devastated was she just as we all were...we cried for days....so we had already boughten our oldest her steer he was a 1/2 simmi....not home yet...then went looking and found another...so we decided to give the 10 yo the simmi...he should be pretty gentle...well not so true...

we show in the BEST and it took her until he was with a cow (being a heat detector) that we were flushing to finally calm him down...in February...showed great the whole month of February until the expo then he was a nut job....trust me he was being worked very regularly...he would go in spurts when he was good and at state fair worked like a dream for her...a week later at county fair he got spooked by inconsiderate observes and that's all she wrote....

last year in 4h had a calf that she had work with....we didn't take him out much because he was always behind the 8ball in weight....did fine a couple of times and at state fair....a week later at county fair knocked her down in the ring and almost stepped on her.....

so my husband and I made up our minds that this year was going to be different for her if we wanted to keep her interested...she had this calf when he was a baby showed him as a feeder last year at county fair and was champion light weight...so she was so excited for the BEST season this year to get started cuz she had a calf that was calm and was her baby...4 weeks before the Lima show she breaks her right wrist....talked about disappointed but her sister showed him for her and he was champion appendix horn in the first ring.....she was proud of both of them...

go the AGS this weekend....mom (me) is a nervous wreck...i get so nervous that i could almost throw up....and i know she is a little nervous...she goes our for showmanship and he is a very alert little calf...he jumped around for her a little...but guess what she made the cut for the final drive in showmanship...final drive she is more confident...didn't make the top 10 but the judge sure did like talking to her....and then she went on to do very well in the steer show...better on sunday than Saturday but her confidence was boosted quite a bit....

so i guess what i am trying to say is that you don't think that didn't cross our minds....don't think that if he would try to hurt our daughter that he wouldn't have been gone...he was just afraid of his own shadow at times plus he knew he was alot bigger than her..but that is all over and now we are working with her calf now and her confidence is blooming....char

 

[DL]

IMHO we all have our criteria for what is and what isn't acceptable in our cattle.
For me
Kick with malice ---> GONE
Can't tell a human from a coyote ----> GONE
Won't let me touch the newborn-----> GONE
Persistent fruit loop with no signs of de looping -----> GONE

Working other peoples cattle I have seen all kinds of criteria. If Diamnod felt that the heifer should not reproduce, then more power to Diamond. If someone else had the heifer and wanted to keep her, well that's OK too.

I do what works for me, and I sure prefer working on cattle where people share a similar approach - being charged by a 3 legged fast cow was not my idea of a really good time

 

[Diamond]

Yes, I agree I did show her for that 1 year (and I was 15 at the time), however I took the punishment from that, that she so gladly delivered, But I chose to not drug that heifer, and at every show I dealt with her aggressiveness . As far as someone ever being to hard on her, no, I had her from day 1 and she was treated like gold. I tried to work it out of her but as she grew older her temperament worsened, and I chose that I would not risk my health any longer for a hairy hamburger. I don’t keep animals that have the nerve to attack a person, and no I don’t give them a million chances.

It may be my standards are too high, for to me, be it a pasture animal or a show animal I want to be able to walk in my field and be confident that I’m not going to be plowed down by an unruly cow.  So though it may be my just be my opinion, I will strive for perfection in temperament.
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[red]

big thing is that it's everyone's own choice to do what they want in regards to keeping, putting out to pasture or selling cattle. Only they know what's best for their operation. Some of my cattle might not work for others & theirs not for me. I have a cow that I personally hate but she gets fine w/ the hubby. He is the one that handles her. I'm sure if she gets to the point that he can't- she'll go. In fact if she doesn't breed this time, she's gone anyway.
Both Chambero & Diamond approched situations a little different. Both have different operations. Neither did wrong for their operations- it was what was best for them.

Red

 

[justme]

Diamond...glad you finally got rid of her.  My thing as a mom is you were endangering the other kids by showing her.  If she was that dangerous she could have hurt another kid. If you were only 15, your parents should have said enoughs enough we don't want to take a chance on hurting another kid.  In general, I'm not worried of our calf hurting my daughter(anything could happen but I know she's put her hours in and I wouldn't let her show a nut) but when I'm in the stands, I worry more about the other calves in the class.  The smaller the show the more I worry.  I know deep down inside some kids may not have gotten there calves broke all the way.  Just my honest opinion.  Good luck with your next one.