Leader 21 heifer

[aj]

What is the mame of the 20,000 bull and is semen available on him?

 

[simtal]

I think that foot size should be given more attention than bone, big footed cattle don't harm cutability or calving ease.  I see too often big boned cattle that are not big footed.  Big footed ones are often times the sounder, more functional kind, IMO.

 

[justintime]

The bull that sold for $20,000  is HC Timeline 17T ET x*. Right now the owners have decided to not sell semen but to use him in their herds exclusively. Whether this decision will change or not, I cannot say.

 

[oakview]

We used Leader 21 quite often 40 years ago with good success at the time.  Kind of funny that he was criticized at the time for being too big and now we're using him to get them smaller.  I am curious, though, why the sudden interest in using all the old bulls.  I'm not being critical because I do the same thing from time to time.  There are cows being flushed to Leader 21, Leader 9, Roan Harvet Duke, Weston Dynamo, and many other bulls that were at least moderately popular from the 60's to the 80's.  A former executive secretary of the ASA told me once that if we were doing a decent job with our breeding program, each generation should be better than the previous one and the bulls available now (when he told me this) should be better than the bulls available 30 years ago.  In a perfect world, this would be true, but times change, points of emphasis change.  I assume some of the reasons people are using the retro-bulls include wanting to down size frame score, improve fleshing ability, and maybe just to have something different.  Are there no bulls of today that can accomplish these goals?  Again, I'm not criticizing anyone using these old genetics, just interested in hearing their reasons for doing it.

 

[garybob]

Would Leader 21st have any problem today, as far as Scrotal Circumference or Testicular Symmetry? I think he looks perfect in every other way.

GB

 

[Bawndoh]

aj... the $20,000 was real.... and I paid commission on the entire amount. What was left was in my settlement cheque. I really do not understand what is the big deal about a $20,000 bull. If I was to go to town and buy a used 1/2 ton truck, no one would suggest that the price of $20,000 was made up. My neighbours just purchased two new green combines at over $400,000 each... no one is suggesting there is anything suspicous about that deal. In reality, $20,000 is NOT a big amount of money any more. By the way, the US and Canadian dollars were almost exactly at par at sale time.

In the case of our bull, we had two syndicates try to buy him. I retained a semen interest in him and let both groups know that I would be a partner in whichever group won the bidding. The winning group was made up of 7 commercial and purebred breeders from Alberta and Saskatchewan ( I made the 8th member of the group). There were 5 in the runner up group ( I would have been the sixth if they had bought him). I do not think that a $2500- 3000 investment is much to pay for an interest in any animal that you feel will help your herd.

I personally think that there are more investment opportunities in the beef industry than ever before. A good sire or a good donor can generate many thousands of dollars, if they are promoted properly.

$20, 00 is believable, $50, 000 is believable, $100, 000 may even be believable, but $250,000 + is not.  That, IMO, is rediculous.  Sorry, but the bull, his pedigree, numbers, and phenotype should be absolutely PERFECT to even come close to paying $250K.  Nevermind that, he should come with a guarantee to live for at least 5 years.  Just my honest opinion.  Maybe it was real $$, but what are they trying to prove with that...?.

 

[aj]

I am pretty much a dumbass but why in the world would 7 commercial guys raising commercial cattle want to use a bull "exclusively" when they could could sell semen on him? And in reference to are modern bulls better then the older bulls because of generational bulls? Define good to start with. Are the current showring cattle good. I don't modern shorthorns grade like they used to. I think it is because of the maine infusion,possibly milking shorthorn bllod infusion, and just bigger framed cattle.ARE THE OLDER CATTLE BETTER IN GRADING ABILITY? If they are I would like a piece of them.I have heard that cattle in the 1930's were bigger cattle untill the the showringring fad of the short squaty cattle hit.I think the Shorthorn breed needs to find a red polled bull that grades like crazy and everybody should use him. I think it will come out of old genetics. If a shorthorn bull has a plus 40 weaning epd and a plus 60 yearling epd with 110 bwt...I don't think he is better genetics if his daughters can't survive on a forage based diet and can't calve unassisted on open range. The older cattle are more wastefull with a tendency to do the yield grade 4 deal but they are a source we need to tap into imho.People get so locked into the maximum instead of a optimum.  The shorthorn cattle are great for showing but they are so far removed from the optimum it makes me cry.  There has to be a old school shorthorn bull in a semen tank somewhere that is mr. gradability., I wish the old bulls were gene star tested and everything so we could figure out who mr. gradability is.jmo

 

[simtal]

I wish the old bulls were gene star tested and everything so we could figure out who mr. gradability is.jmo

I don't think genestar is gonna tell you much, marbling epd is probably a better option. 

EPDs are still the most accurate predictor out there.  The shorthorn assoc needs to have carcass merit testing if they wanna compete with other breeds.  Get 25 of the most popular shorthorn sires used,  get hooked up with cooperator herds somewhere, find a feedyard/university to do a study/collect data on a couple thousand head.  That would dramatically validate and improve predictability of current epds.

 

[knabe]

I wish the old bulls were gene star tested and everything so we could figure out who mr. gradability is.jmo
I don't think genestar is gonna tell you much, marbling epd is probably a better option. 

EPDs are still the most accurate predictor out there.  The shorthorn assoc needs to have carcass merit testing if they wanna compete with other breeds.  Get 25 of the most popular shorthorn sires used,  get hooked up with cooperator herds somewhere, find a feedyard/university to do a study/collect data on a couple thousand head.  That would dramatically validate and improve predictability of current epds.

hmmm, the first seems to easy.

there are only 4 markers associated with marbling from bovigen, and many markers "linked" with igenity.  if you use epd's/feedyard/universities, you will get epd's based on a restricted perspective on what could marble why.  it's unusual to get basic research out of universities any more due to funding issues and return.

to me, i want marbling independent from intensive feedyard imposition.  i understand the bovigen panel was realized from fed cattle, but these were probably outliers from the 8-10,000 (or whatever the number was) individuals looked at. as far as i'm concerned, what i want is the feedyard time to be as short as possible and to only be used to soften the taste.

there are many problems using ultrasound and marbling in bulls with different inputs than a direction wants to go.  i would like to add a few more categories to a study to add flexibility in selection, rather than always linking results to what we are trying to minimize.  the results must be allowed to come through in spite of minimization without puddiness.  this will probably involve a redistribution of fat within the animal rather than a total fat composition percentage.  it will probably involve pathways associated with anaerobic and aerobic muscle percentages.

 

[justintime]

I maybe should have been clearer in my last comments. Of the 8 owners of the bull, only 1 is entirely a commercial producer. I am not certain why he decided to be a partner, other than he thought it might be an investment opportunity.  The other 7 are purebred producers, and 3 of these have sizable commercial herds along with their purebred herds. I am letting them decide whether they want to sell semen or not. As far as I am concerned, I wanted some semen to use in my own herd and to use in flushing some donors. I flushed one donor to him in May and I think we have 4 calves coming in 09.  

As I said, I do not know if they are going to sell semen from Timeline or not. I suspect that all the owners will meet at a fall show or sale and make some of these decisions.

In regards to scrotal circumference and symmetry, I think the Leader line was good for both these traits.There were some problems with some other lines in this era ( 60s and 70s).  I will add that I also agree with oakview in that if breeders are doing their jobs right, each generation should result in some cattle that are better than the previous one. I have gone back and used some old genetics simply because there seems to be a trend to go back and use some of these genetics again.As they say..... the buyer is always right. I have seen some good results and I have seen some calves from these older sires that do not  set the world on fire. I am not sure why there is such a trend back to using older genetics, especially here in some parts of Canada, other than I think it is more of a fad than anything. Some useful cattle will result for the use of these sires, but some are using sires that were no good back then... and they are just as poor today. I suspect the breeders using some of these will not be happy with the calves from some of these.

 

[K_State_Katy]

Just a thought but I thought I might explain the reasoning for a bull to bring exactly $20,000. It is because of the increments the auctioneer chooses to increase by if a good auctioneer thinks the animal in the is worth 20,000 dolors or so he isn't going to increase bids by $10 each bid or even $100, (you would loose your crowd going that slow) he is going to increase by $500 or $1000...or even $2,500 or $5,000. and if an animal is going to sell for over a $100,000 the auctioneer is likely to go in $10,000 increments. That's how Dad sells them anyways.

 

[aj]

What is the story on the leader 21 son selling in the agribition? Could I buy him and import him to ks?What is his color? Thanks jit.

 

[justintime]

The Leader 21 son we are selling at Agribition is a very dark roan, moderate framed and was 84 lb at birth. He is smooth polled and is quite thick topped. He seems to be getting thicker as he gets older. He has a softness about him than many of today's catte lack. I will be picturing him in a few days and I will post his picture on SP.

He could be purchased by anyone in Canada or USA. There would be no problem getting him to Kansas.It would be quite easy to get him to Denver in January from here.

 

[coyote]

I think one of the reasons why breeders are using old bulls is because there is too much exotic blood in the Shorthorn breed now, people want to get the Shorthorn back in Shorthorn.
One thing that is hurting the breed right now is the hard doing cattle. Buy using some of these better old bulls it is adding some fleshing ability and guts back into our cattle.

 

[sjcattleco]

I think one of the reasons why breeders are using old bulls is because there is too much exotic blood in the Shorthorn breed now, people want to get the Shorthorn back in Shorthorn.
One thing that is hurting the breed right now is the hard doing cattle. Buy using some of these better old bulls it is adding some fleshing ability and guts back into our cattle.

These "better" old bulls were bred and raised by cattleman with talent and a gift for raising cattle..They bred like to like they linebred the best to the best and they did not buy a new bull from half way across the country every 3rd year!  They were also limited by the amount of inputs they had.. There were no yields of 200 bu/ acre CHEAP corn to fix a poor breeding decision! Poor breeding decisions were fixed before the next season began! There were no EPDs to screw everything up. These men knew what a truly profitable animal looked like. Its a real shame that we could not go back in time and slaughter every Exotic bred animal that came into this country in the 70s and 80's  The per capita consumption of beef in North America today would be staggering!!!

 

[justintime]

I am old enough to remember the 60s and the 70s... and believe me... I NEVER, EVER  want to go back to those kinds of cattle!  I remember very well, the  cows with huge gobs of fat around their tail heads and the 1200 lb steers with 8 or 9 inch ribeyes, that received huge discounts at  the packer. .. cows with terrible udders. I remember mature bulls that had problems breeding cows because they were too low to the ground and way too fat.  We started feeding out our cattle in the late 60s and I remember very well the sad returns some of the cattle from that era. I do remember some good cattle in this era as well, but almost all of them had dual purpose Shorthorn in their background somewhere. ( for example, Four Point Major is backed by dual purpose genetics on both sides). The Leader cattle were considered huge in that day, but they would be small framed today.Leader 21 weighed in at 2150 lb... but believe me, he was so fat to weigh 2150 that he could hardly walk. I saw him numerous times and I would say that in normal condition he might have weighed 1900... on a good day. Several of his sons like Leader 3rd ( George the Giant), Leader 6th, Leader 9th ( Big Gene) were bigger bulls than Leader 21 himself.  The Leader cattle were not known for having much better carcass traits than others of that day... they were just a little bigger.When we started feeding cattle, I fed many Shorthorns and tracked many different sires and bloodlines. These cattle were no better than any others of the day. I have literally hundreds, and many thousands of sale catalogs going back  into the 1950s and I often look at these. It is a good history lesson and I have to wonder why these cattle were so popular back then. Probably because they were the best available in that day. Today, when I look at them, I see very few cattle that would be popular today.

I will have to take exception to comment about the feeding practices of breeders in that era. I watches many of these breeders and they fed their cattle longer and with hotter feed than anyone does today. I worked at a well known herd , that is still around today, and I remember the hours I spent chopping potatoes which would be added to the boiled barley and corn.We fed the cattle 3 times a day.. I remember how fat these cattle were and it was completely obscene.I remember being sent out to a pasture and having to pour disinfectant  between the gobs of fat on several cows to kill the maggots and to stop the infection that was starting bewtween the folds of fat. These cows were on grass with no other supplement.  When this herd went to shows, their cattle looked just like everyone else's. I also remember the barns that were full of nurse cows that the yearling bulls still nursed at the shows. I can actually remember a very popular two year old bull in the 60s, that nursed on two Holstein cows , while he was on the show circuit. If you think there are Master feeders and fitters today.... I doubt if they are any better at counterfitting an animal than many in the 60s. I used to go through the barns at night when no one was around and run my hand on the inside of the flank of as many cattle as I could. I was not very old, but I was old enough to know when a flank had been cut and stitched so it would appear to be lower.

When I was in Scotland this summer, I was surprised to find that there are no cattle left from the old Scottish lines from the 60s and 70s. In a great conversation with Donald and Di McGillvary, who owned the famous Calrossie stud, I asked why none of these cattle still remained. Donald replied that they were all eliminated because they were not good enough. There are some tremendous Shorthorns in Scotland today, and I would say that 95 % of them are composites of Canadian, American, Australian Shorthorns ... and Maine Anjou. I have attached a picture of a typical cow that is a combination of American and US Shorthorn and Maine Anjou. These cattle were as easy keeping, and smooth made as you will find anywhere... and they had great udders.

I have used some sires from this era and recently pictured an ET Leader 21 heifer on here. I think that there are some cattle from this era that can add some economic traits to some of today's bloodlines. I think they will add some softness and some easy fleshing ability. I am reserving judgement on the carcass qualities these calves will have until we do some ultrasound testing.

As for slaughtering every exotic bred animal that came into this country... I think that would be a terrible thing to do. There are some amazing beef animals in many so called exotic breeds today. Here in Western Canada, the best bull sales each spring are Simmental bull sales. One sale near me, had 10 bulls sell to commercial producers at $10,000 or more. The Charolais, Simmental, Maines and all over exotic breeds, made all of us who raise traditional British  breeds, pull up our socks and get serious about breeding and raising cattle that actually will work in the industry. The so called exotics when crossed with a Shorthorn, Hereford or Angus make an outstanding beast. These cross cattle are so of the best cattle in the beef industry and the feedlots and packers love them.

 

[OH Breeder]

I will have to take exception to comment about the feeding practices of breeders in that era. I watches many of these breeders and they fed their cattle longer and with hotter feed than anyone does today. I worked at a well known herd , that is still around today, and I remember the hours I spent chopping potatoes which would be added to the boiled barley and corn.We fed the cattle 3 times a day.. I remember how fat these cattle were and it was completely obscene.I remember being sent out to a pasture and having to pour disinfectant  between the gobs of fat on several cows to kill the maggots and to stop the infection that was starting bewtween the folds of fat. These cows were on grass with no other supplement.  When this herd went to shows, their cattle looked just like everyone else's. I also remember the barns that were full of nurse cows that the yearling bulls still nursed at the shows. I can actually remember a very popular two year old bull in the 60s, that nursed on two Holstein cows , while he was on the show circuit. If you think there are Master feeders and fitters today.... I doubt if they are any better at counterfitting an animal than many in the 60s. I used to go through the barns at night when no one was around and run my hand on the inside of the flank of as many cattle as I could. I was not very old, but I was old enough to know when a flank had been cut and stitched so it would appear to be lower.

WOW JIT that is really amazin.

 

[aj]

I am not sure the"elite purebred " has ever gotten it right. I think the guy one step up from the commercial herds are the ones most in touch with the needs of the industry. The commercial guy does not care about purple ribbons. He doesn't care about a bull being a full sib to 50,000 bull. He doesn't care about how many eggs a cow flushed. He is going to buy the best bull he can buy for the least amount of money.Pounds weaned per cow exposed is good measure of profitability. Or pounds weaned off the ranch or pounds weaned off per acre of grass. The purpose of a ruminant is to take a low quality forage and turn it into protein at a profit. It wasn't suppose to be a avenue to make feed and supplement companies a billion dollar industry. I've heard stories of people with cows in say the 1930's. They got no supplements...maybe salt.No hay...no protein tubs...no mineral...no nothing. Now the rancher in some cases are working for the cow not the cow working for the rancher.There has got to be a middle of the road but in my opinion 90% of shorthorn cattle have a complete disconnect from the real world. They are a super showring cattle. I hear people say I only sell heifers not bulls. Stand back and analize this statement. Why are we in business then. Right now every shorthorn could disappear from earth and the industry wouldn't miss us. I think Shorthorn cattle are a great breed. I am amazed at the show cattle they are good. But lets not kid ourselves. We will not be a force in the industry till we clean up defects and use some common sense natural selection. jit I keep hearing about commercial people buying 20,000$ bulls. I don't know if you are full of crap or if Canada if different somehow. It sounds like a whole different country up there ;D. I personally think the shorthorns will always be a showring breed. However, I think we can develop lines that can be usefull to the regular industry.It may take 10 years to get there. It is all about selection. We need to understand what people need for their enviroment and work backwards and breed this type of cattle. Now we just breed cattle then tell the regular industry people what kind of cattle they should use. This goes for alot of breeds I think.

 

[TPX]

            I just had to chime in.  To start with i dont think that bone size has a thing to do with birth wieght and is completly based on gentics.  We raise purebred red angus a bred that is well known for low birth weight and we constitently get calves between 70-85 pounds and dont have a problem with bone size and we also have on cow that will always calve one to two weeks early and she will always have a 50-70 pound calf and she has never had a calf that lacked bone.  I will admit that we have had a few calves with not much bone that i attribute completly to gentics.

          I think that the shorthorn breed needs to be improved mainly on birth weight, if this happens I think that is would be alot easier to sell bulls to commercial breeders.  We had shorthorns and always tried to use low birth weight bulls and had cows that were low birth weight but we always had high birth weight calves.  We only had luck with two bulls that would always give us low birth weight calves and that was gizmo and muridale buster.  I find that the breed is now trying to focus on carcass while they still doynt have a solid set of epd's and also still have alot of producers that dont seem to think that they need to submit weaning and yearling weights (I think that its mostly b/c some of them dont own a scale which is sad b/c we have always had a scale even when we only had commercial cows).  If you talk to commercial breeders most of them dont care about carcass data b/c most of them sell when there calves are 6-8 months old so they mostly care about the weaning weight b/c pounds mean money. 


          We recently got two catologues in the mail for herd dispersals one was a breeder that is getting out due to poor health and the other was a very young breeder and we also quit this year we found that the fees were killing us,  ecspecially for what the assoc gives you back in services.  As long as the breed keeps losing young breeders they will have a hard time surviving.  I would like to add that some of the older breeders need to watch how they treat some of the younger members b/c some are quick to shake your hand but stab you in the back when you turn around.

 

[oakbar]

Hey JIT,

Love the depth of rib on your Presto cow!!  How tall was Leader 21?  He looks like a bull who's progeny could really do the breed some good in moderating frame size without sacrificing muscle.

Oakbar