Leader 21 heifer

[TJ]

By the way, I was not referring to the cattle on our farm in my rant about not wanting to ever go back to the cattle I saw in the early 60s. I was referring to my experience working part time on one of the breed's top herds at that time. Here on our farm, we had cattle that were too small framed but my dad would never tolerate poor udders and gobby fat cows. This meant that many cows went to town in a relatively short period of time. I have toured though at least 20 herds in the last year, all across Canada and the US... and I maintain that today's herds are composed of much better cattle than there ever was back a few decades ago. Yes, some may need to down size slightly to become more efficient, but that can be obtained in one or two generations with the right sires. Many have spent the best parts of their life times trying to get where they are today, from where they were 30 years ago. Quite honestly, I have seen some excellent herds of true brood cows in the past 3 weeks. Let's concentrate on the good ones.

Thanks for clearing that up.  My curiousity is getting the best of me, so I'm going to talk to Ralph the next time I bump into him because I was always under the impression that he thought the older Shorthorn genetics were better than the newer genetics.  Now, this was back in the 80's & 90's, but not in the last 10 years.  I may ask my dad too because he should remember their Shorthorn cattle very well & he knew other Shorthorn breeders also.  Knowing Ralph the way I do, I just couldn't/can't picture the Meacham's with a herd of bad uddered cattle that were fat with no muscle.  Smaller framed & easier doing, yes, but those 2 things are not the parts that I am concerned about. 

 

[justintime]

I think that many Shorthorns will marble better than many other breeds. You can get most breeds to marble by managing the feeding period properly, as well as the time on feed. A few years ago, a large herd here in Canada, sent 105 steers to a feedlot in southern Alberta. They were fed out and all 105 steers went to the Cargill plant on the same day.In this 40,000 head feedlot, it was the only pen of cattle that was emptied all the same day. This pen of cattle also were one of the most efficient on feed, and this set of cattle averaged 16 days less on feed than the average of the cattle on feed. That may not sound significant, but think of how much money this represents if all 40,000 head had finished 16 days earlier.... or close to 100,000 head that passed through this one lot every year.

When this set of steers were slaughtered the results were also very significant. Cargill had a premium system based on quality grade and yield. This set of steers was awarded the highest premium ever given out by Cargill and it amounted to over $100 per head. When I heard about this, I phoned the head buyer at the Cargill plant. He was absolutely estatic about these cattle. He said that he could not publically promote one breed over another seeing they had to deal with all breeds, but he said that he would love to see many more cattle like these going through his plant. These steers were 80% purebred Shorthorn and 20 % Shorthorn cross.They not only had excellent ribeye areas and fat cover, but they received the highest points on their premium system for marbling. It was the marbling score that moved this set of steers to the top. I would also add that these steers were mostly sired by bulls purchased in the US from Hoyt & Sons, in Oregon and Dale Rocker in Nebraska.

Our grading system here in Canada is somewhat different than the US system, but the Shorthorn breed, here in Canada,  is known for it's ability to marble well, on less days of feed than most other breeds. The Alberta Shorthorn Association did several feeding trials and this was proven in every test. In our own bull test last year, our bulls were fed next to an well established Black Angus bull test group. The Angus group of 85 bulls were selected from over 200 bulls so they were much more uniform in size and type. Our Shorthorn bulls were basically all the bulls we had produced in 2007.  In the end, the Angus bulls outgained the Shorthorn group by less than .2 lb per day, however, the Shorthorn group were significantly more efficient, that is, they were able to gain each pound, on less pounds of feed than the Angus pen did. Both pens were ultrasounded, adn the lady who did the ultrasound testing said that the Shorthorn group had one of the very best sets of carcass data she had tested in Western Canada. These bulls were fed a very high roughage ration but they still had the highest IMF stats she had gathered that spring.

I firmly  believe that here in Canada, we have seen Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross cattle selling for more on the commercial market, since some of these feeding stories have been made public. The feedlot manager of the 40,000 head lot told many other feedlot managers about this set of steers. We just need more set of cattle like this .... the cattle will do a better job of telling the story than the breeders will ever do.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I used the Legacy bull a couple of times and got some nice animals.  Solid red when bred to red angus, but they were smaller framed than I would like to see,  and it seemed that they came on a little later than most commercial producers want.  But when they left my place they were NICE.

 

[simtal]

those posts on rib eye size are false.  This is the same bs that the hog industry tried pull.  Steaks are sold by the once.  It doesn't matter how big of area the steaks are, steaks are cut by width.

 

[sjcattleco]

those posts on rib eye size are false.  This is the same bs that the hog industry tried pull.  Steaks are sold by the once.  It doesn't matter how big of area the steaks are, steaks are cut by width.

That is not a false statement!!!  The hog industry farce was about leanness. If you get a hog to lean it tastes like crap! Not many folks that I know of would complain about a 10 sq in pork chop BUT If you bought a 19 sq inch ribeye at 1 inch think at a restaurant it would cost $50.00,  no one would buy a 1 inch thick steak that weighs in a 2 1/2 pounds!!  thats a roast.... you can get loin eye too big.. Case in point... When did the NY Strip and the KC Strip steak as we know it today become a promoted popular cut?  70s and 80s.  Why?  because of the bigger is better mentality and the Charolais, Chis, Simmis, Limis, were here and they were all the rage and the meat packing industry was all about pounds per hour and to heck with quality.  it was all about YIELD!  Now it was not uncommon for a T-Bone out of one of these beasts to not even fit on a platter that the restaurants could even afford to buy to serve it on or fit into the box used to ship it in. So what did they do?, they invented a new cut... have a man cut out the bone. Sell the loin muscle as a NY Strip or a KC strip ( The exact same cut of meat) for about $1.00 or so more per pound and then sell the Fillet Minion for as much as they could get... How many restaurants can you find that Strip steak now? Esp the ones that are dumb enough to sell CAB... practically NONE!    at least at the ones I eat at. and if you order a fillet at a restaurant do you really think they come from choice grade a #1 steers and heifers that are A maturity and finished perfectly??? NOPE!  old cow, Heiferette, Maybe Holstein steer if you are lucky! and remember  Black holstein steers pass for CAB EVERYDAY!!!!

 

[JoeBnTN]

those posts on rib eye size are false.  This is the same bs that the hog industry tried pull.  Steaks are sold by the once.  It doesn't matter how big of area the steaks are, steaks are cut by width.

You obviously don't shop at the same retailers that I do or eat in the same restaurants.  Everywhere I go, the cuts are made to fit a predetermined portion size.  If the REA is too large then the steak is so thin it doesn't cook well, if its too small then the cut looks like a roast.  An 8 oz. steak that's from a 17 sq. in REA will be less than 1/4" thick - do you want to try and cook and serve something that thin perfectly?

If you don't think there is a preferred REA size go to Flemings or Ruth's Chris or any other high end restaurant and ask the chef what he wants.  Or write the National Cattlemen's Beef organization in Colorado and ask them what their consumer panels found out.  Better yet, find the Beef Quality Audits from the late 90's up to today  and read them - REA's from 11-13.5 sq. in. are generally the ideal for the consumer.  In fact, one of the top complaints from both consumers and retailers has been the lack of consistency in size and quality of cuts of meat - particularly the high end steaks.  As long as we keep thinking the consumer demands are B.S. we'll still have marketing problems on an industry scale.

 

[Doc]

those posts on rib eye size are false.  This is the same bs that the hog industry tried pull.  Steaks are sold by the once.  It doesn't matter how big of area the steaks are, steaks are cut by width.

You're right , steaks are sold by the ounce but as a whole unit.

 

[knabe]

  If the REA is too large then the steak is so thin it doesn't cook well, if its too small then the cut looks like a roast

i'm not understanding why 1-2" thick steaks are hard to cook, or why you can't cook a steak and cut it in half and give your spouse one half and retain the other half for yourself.  Is it really that hard to cut a steak in half?

 

[JoeBnTN]

  If the REA is too large then the steak is so thin it doesn't cook well, if its too small then the cut looks like a roast

I'm not understanding why 1-2" thick steaks are hard to cook, or why you can't cook a steak and cut it in half and give your spouse one half and retain the other half for yourself.  Is it really that hard to cut a steak in half?

Without getting into a cooking and processing lecture, let me answer these one at a time.

Cooking meat by design eliminates moisture in the cooking process.  If a steak is too thick, the time it takes for the center of the cut to reach a desired degree of doneness, like medium, causes the outside to dry out, lose flavor and decrease tenderness.  Likewise a steak that's too thin, cooks too fast and tends to overcook the center.  It's not that it can't be done, but it takes a lot of practice and even the best chefs typically prefer steaks in the 3/4" to 1-1/4" range.  The other part of the equation is consistency - its far easier to prepare meals when all the cuts are basically the same.  That's the number one demand of both restaurants and consumers - more consistency in the product.

You are basically correct on the second part of your question - those things can be done.  However, have you ever seen a restaurant offer a 'half-steak".  This is all about their merchandising (not the cattleman's).  Meat marketers know what the average consumer wants.  have you ever gone to the grocery store and looked at the beef section.  How are rib-eyes packaged?  The most common way is in a two-pack that weighs somewhere between 1 lb and 1-1/2 lbs. with the weight difference caused by thickness.  The packages are all the same and they dictate rib-eye area - one that's too big won't fit in their packaging or must sell as a single.  Again it's consistency for the consumer and the marketer.  Stores have a finite amount of space to allocate to each product.  Every time it varies significantly it requires new packaging and greater shelf space - not what the marketer wants.  When you get home you can divide the package the way you like - and we do split steaks for our kids, but at the point of purchase it's likely to be a very consistent product that you are looking at.

Likewise have you ever been to a beef processing facility where steaks are cut and packaged?  Here the meat cutters must cut product into a specified portion size, WITHOUT weighing and measuring each individual cut.  The do this at a very fast speed and they are usually accurate to within .1 of a pound.  When they make mistakes  it's typically because of an extremely large or small rib-eye.  In many plants - carcasses are put aside that don't "fit the box" and processed differently and usually at a discount.  The meat packer wants the product to be consistent so that he can ship the same amount of product per box to his customers.  Again consistency or product.

As producers we may not like to hear that, but the truth is, comparred to pork and poultry, cattel producers are far more disconnected from the needs and demands of their consumers.  As a result we have lost market share to other meat products that are more closely attuned to the needs of the purchasing public.

JiT - sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[simtal]

those posts on rib eye size are false.  This is the same bs that the hog industry tried pull.  Steaks are sold by the once.  It doesn't matter how big of area the steaks are, steaks are cut by width.

That is not a false statement!!!  The hog industry farce was about leanness. If you get a hog to lean it tastes like crap! Not many folks that I know of would complain about a 10 sq in pork chop BUT If you bought a 19 sq inch ribeye at 1 inch think at a restaurant it would cost $50.00,   no one would buy a 1 inch thick steak that weighs in a 2 1/2 pounds!!  thats a roast.... you can get loin eye too big.. Case in point... When did the NY Strip and the KC Strip steak as we know it today become a promoted popular cut?   70s and 80s.  Why?  because of the bigger is better mentality and the Charolais, Chis, Simmis, Limis, were here and they were all the rage and the meat packing industry was all about pounds per hour and to heck with quality.   it was all about YIELD!  Now it was not uncommon for a T-Bone out of one of these beasts to not even fit on a platter that the restaurants could even afford to buy to serve it on or fit into the box used to ship it in. So what did they do?, they invented a new cut... have a man cut out the bone. Sell the loin muscle as a NY Strip or a KC strip ( The exact same cut of meat) for about $1.00 or so more per pound and then sell the Fillet Minion for as much as they could get... How many restaurants can you find that Strip steak now? Esp the ones that are dumb enough to sell CAB... practically NONE!    at least at the ones I eat at. and if you order a fillet at a restaurant do you really think they come from choice grade a #1 steers and heifers that are A maturity and finished perfectly??? NOPE!  old cow, Heiferette, Maybe Holstein steer if you are lucky! and remember  Black holstein steers pass for CAB EVERYDAY!!!!

I think that you are blowing numbers out of proportion. Who gives hoot where the meat came from along as the eating experience is good? Whats wrong with CAB? Because they own the high quality beef market?  Shame on you, you make too much money?  According the Beef Quality Assurance Audit of 2005 (yeah its three years old but the latest edition) there are far greater concerns than just a few over sized ribeyes. Maintaining high quality beef supplies during high input prices are what people should be focusing on.  

 

[Jill]

  If the REA is too large then the steak is so thin it doesn't cook well, if its too small then the cut looks like a roast

i'm not understanding why 1-2" thick steaks are hard to cook, or why you can't cook a steak and cut it in half and give your spouse one half and retain the other half for yourself.  Is it really that hard to cut a steak in half?

I'll take a thick fillet any day of the week over the thin one, cook it medium rare, butterfly it and it's perfect!  It's not that hard, people just don't know how to cook anymore IMO.

 

[CAB]

  Great discussion. I think that some of the increased interest and use of the older genetics stems from the older breeders remembering some of the great attributes that the old SH cattle had and the consistency that they would breed their traits on to their offspring. In reality, I think that both the Short Horn Asso. and the AMAA would both be out of business if they hadn't joined up what decade was it, the 70's? They needed each other badly and we are virtually creating a new breed of cattle. I think that we are trying to decide if the pendulum has swung too far the other way and with some traits it probably has. My daughter and I had an interesting conversation this morning. I said that you really don't know what a "true Shorthorn is", then continued to reminisce about the Shorthorn cattle of my youth and have thought even more about them, remembering some pure beef type SH heifers that I had bought in my early teens and relaying to her that 1 of her show heifers did go back to those early heifers 30 some years ago. I personally think of the SH as almost 2 separate breeds, remembering a neighbor that milked quite a few Milking SHs. I used to buy his bull calves to put on nurse cows. They were better property than a B&W calf. How many of you have ever seen a "true" Milking SH? Talk about needing more bone.
  Bingo Jill, on the fillets. When we were selling meat piece by piece, we die offer a ribeye steak cut 11/2 in thick cut in half and they sold as well if not better than the one steak /pack cut @ 11/4 in thick. We also offered whole boneless sirloin steaks cut 1 1/2 in thick and that is an excellent cut also. I would rather have that steak than have it cut 3/4 in to 1 in thick. Sirloins have great flavor if you can just keep them moist enough. Ribeyes in the box are sold in categories based on sq inches with premium prices for the size that meets the largest group of consumers. There will be big discounts if the sq inch size is too big.
  In my experience hoof size generally coinsides with bone size, but this is just a rule of thumb. If the hoof is big generally the more bone.

 

[justintime]

here is a picture of our TPS Coronet Leader 21st  ET son that is selling at Canadian Western Agribition on Nov 27th. He had a 86 lb BW and weighed 905 lb on October 30th. Leader 21st was born in 1960. His dam is Shadybrook Presto 73G X*, who is pictured earlier on this thread.

 

[knabe]

he looks like his momma more than the other one, and not because of the color. 

there probably is a difference in how cannon bones fill in between males and females back then compared to now and how round they get or flat they stay.

back to the original heifer.  i really like the transition from her muzzle to her eyes.

 

[justintime]

Here is a short video of the Leader 21st bull pictured above...

http://s378.photobucket.com/albums/oo222/horseshoecreekfarms/?action=view&current=LeadersLegacy9U.flv

 

[aj]

Cool, looked like he strides out ok. What is his frame score? He's probably to big for me.How much for the combine in the video? ;D

 

[knabe]

Here is a short video of the Leader 21st bull pictured above...

i think he looks pretty awesome.  you can tell he's squarer made top to bottom in the vid better.

 

[justintime]

haha..... aj, I will tell you what.... if you want the combine in the picture, you can come and take it away. My dad bought it about 10 years ago thinking it might be a great thing to fill creep feeders with. We used it once to fill a creep feeder in a pasture of cows and calves that were going into our production sale. Since then it has sat exactly where it is now. I think he paid $300 for it and it actually had seen very little use and had been stored inside. It shone like a new combine when he got it. We have not grown any grain for over 30 years now, so a combine is NOT on our wish list.

I have a small " picture pen" that I normally use, but it was shaded and too dark.... so we used my wife's outdoor horse arena. Unfortunately, it is situated beside some old machinery... that you got to view. I asked Chris if she could edit the machinery out of the background and she gave me the "one finger salute", so I didn't bother asking again!

As for the frame score of  Leader's Legacy, I have not taped him for about two months. We he was weaned he framed a 5.8. He has been growing since then and I will try to tape him again tomorrow. In my opinion, he is very moderate in frame and still has lots of body. I think he is close to optimum in frame and will have calving ease as well.

 

[aj]

Looks good to me and should be a good breeding bull.