Linebreeding

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red

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I know that Elbee is very knowledgable about linebreeding. Also from reading Scott's posts he is a believer in it.
I'd like a little more information & background on line breeding. What do you look at to determine how to start? What works the best? What hasn't worked?
Thanks for any information. I find some of elbee's cattle to be very good & am interested in the thought process!

Red
 

sjcattleco

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Well if a person is considering linebreeding 2 other modern cattle producers they need to become familiar with is Jim Lentz and Gearld Fry.. both have books available that are very good.. Lentz owns a Hereford Herd that has been completely closed for over 100 yrs.  Another book to look at is the the old shorthorn history  book that details all the original english  Durham cattle and what they were and how they got there... If you can follow the paths described in the book in your own herd you can accomplish what they did...

so much of the original linebreeding was done out of necessity... Access to new genetics was few and far between.  Also it was incredibly expensive so when new blood was purchased it was line bred until it was just necessary to go out again.  It was not uncommon for old world breeders to maybe only purchase 2-3 bulls their entire life time.

The easiest and smartest way to start a line breeding program is to find one that you like, buy those genetics and stick to them. 

When picking genetics  even if you start within your own herd they should be predictable and PURE!!!!

if you want to open a can of worms start line breeding cross bred or appendix registered stock....

Also the individuals that you pick to line breed to should be as near perfect as you own or can afford...

In our program on the female side of things our original Samantha cow was gone at 14 when I  knew it was OK to start line breeding her and American Muscle's granddam was 18 when she died....and this year I have a maternal half brother to Muscle that I am just about sure will be in the program in 2-3 yrs and we will be line breeding to that old Pandora cow and our Elbee genetics all at the same time...

I would also say that a good well thought out and excuted line breeding program is a 10 yr commitment minimum!

This is all I can really come up with with out being  alot more specific.. 
 

knabe

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wow, got beaten to the punch.  a couple of things readily come to mind


jim lents and his book, The Basis of Linebreeding, which one can never find for sale on line and is in perpetual status of not being published again.  seems like he could make at least some money selling it a university bookstores with a second edition.

always listed at gerald fry's site    http://www.bovineengineering.com/books.html    use the cached version of this link and the book will come up.  fry probably got tired of everyone asking him about the book and took the link down.  this is one of the those "history" books that should get wider distribution.

for some comments on the book.
http://graze-l.witt.ac.nz/pipermail/graze-l/2001-March/022083.html


another source with a contact to purchase the book which will probably fail
http://www.minicattle.com/index.cfm?select=newbreeds     has some quotes from book and an alternative to the beefpaca


and some comments about epd's
http://www.slanker.com/bulls/id73.htm

and of course the obligatory too much info link
jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/74/8/1784.pdf


and of course a couple hereford breeders
http://www.trianglequarterhorses.com/about_us.htm
http://www.holdenherefords.com/


and a dog article
http://westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm


there are some maine breeders out there who are doing a mild form of this to downsize their cattle for grass fed beef
 

ELBEE

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Deerpark Improver 3rd crossed with likes of Leader 21, Leader 9, leader 2nd,Perfect Count, Banner Royal Oak, Super Flag, Columbus, Roan Harvest Duke, etc. produced the type, and kind we were looking for. Then by rotating our own Leader and Influence lines, from there, we formed a figure-8 loop for breeding. Also in the beginning we continuously mated the 3rd 5 generations deep to daughter\granddaughters looking for defects, and found none. At that time we did not know he was not related to old Improver.

I describe line Breeding like this: If all your base genetics are from the Mason Dixon, you can predict the off spring to be from the Mason Dixon. If your genetics are from the North Pole, and some from the South Pole. Even though the off spring look like they are from the Equator, you'll never be able to safely predict the subsequent generations, because of the wide range of genetics. Scott is right, it's much better to start with the chosen kind than try to develop them from composites. And you had better commit at least 10 years, or better yet 50. Believe me, by 1984 standards our cattle were pretty pathetic.
 

DL

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ELBEE said:
Deerpark Improver 3rd crossed with likes of Leader 21, Leader 9, leader 2nd,Perfect Count, Banner Royal Oak, Super Flag, Columbus, Roan Harvest Duke, etc. produced the type, and kind we were looking for. Then by rotating our own Leader and Influence lines, from there, we formed a figure-8 loop for breeding. Also in the beginning we continuously mated the 3rd 5 generations deep to daughter\granddaughters looking for defects, and found none. At that time we did not know he was not related to old Improver.

I describe line Breeding like this: If all your base genetics are from the Mason Dixon, you can predict the off spring to be from the Mason Dixon. If your genetics are from the North Pole, and some from the South Pole. Even though the off spring look like they are from the Equator, you'll never be able to safely predict the subsequent generations, because of the wide range of genetics. Scott is right, it's much better to start with the chosen kind than try to develop them from composites. And you had better commit at least 10 years, or better yet 50. Believe me, by 1984 standards our cattle were pretty pathetic.

ELBEE - So are you saying (and the ASA search is still dead or I could look it up) that Improver (the original, the start of TH) is not related to Improver the 2nd and 3rd? How about the 19th and 57th?

Can you draw out your breeding scheme with an example? Please!! Some of us need the visual to get the idea! TX DL
 

ELBEE

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Please be advised that I speak only of Deerpark Improver 3rd. It is the responsibility of the other mentioned bulls owners to divulge their genetic ancestry. So, other than Improver 3rd, we must assume the pedigrees are correct.

Lets use the marbles. Say, sire has 2 red, and 2 green. And damm has 2 red, and 2 blue. Mix all 8 in a bag, pull out 4, that's the calf. Good chance calf will carry red traits. Go extreme, sire has 3 red, and 1 green. And damm has 3 red, and 1 green. That's linebreeding. Other extreme, sire has 1 red, 1green, 1 blue, and 1 yellow. Now damm has 1 purple, 1 black, 1 orange, and 1 white. Mix all 8 in the bag, who knows what four you'll pull out, that's composite.
 

OH Breeder

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ELBEE said:
Please be advised that I speak only of Deerpark Improver 3rd. It is the responsibility of the other mentioned bulls owners to divulge their genetic ancestry. So, other than Improver 3rd, we must assume the pedigrees are correct.

Lets use the marbles. Say, sire has 2 red, and 2 green. And damm has 2 red, and 2 blue. Mix all 8 in a bag, pull out 4, that's the calf. Good chance calf will carry red traits. Go extreme, sire has 3 red, and 1 green. And damm has 3 red, and 1 green. That's linebreeding. Other extreme, sire has 1 red, 1green, 1 blue, and 1 yellow. Now damm has 1 purple, 1 black, 1 orange, and 1 white. Mix all 8 in the bag, who knows what four you'll pull out, that's composite.
Elbee,
What do you know about TPS Coronet Leader 21st? Jakes Proud Jazz goes to him. If you were to use him on today's shorthorn cows, what kind of cow would you use him on?
 

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ELBEE

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Well, we're intending on flushing Titan's mom to him. Ron Bolze said she was one of the best he'd ever seen. She is our largest frame, prettiest fronted on the farm. I think you'll also want something with some elevation and neck extension. 

Another analogy on marbles. It's been said that a linebred bull can furnish more than 50% of the gene pool, here's how. Sire has all 4 red marbles. Damm has 1 red and any other combonation of other 3 colors. When the 8 are mixed, then 4  pulled out of the bag, good chance you'll have more than 2 red in calf. You can predict beyond a shadow of doubt, you'll have at least one. So calves will resemble sire,(peas-in-a-pod, cookie-cutter).
 

DL

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ELBEE said:
Please be advised that I speak only of Deerpark Improver 3rd. It is the responsibility of the other mentioned bulls owners to divulge their genetic ancestry. So, other than Improver 3rd, we must assume the pedigrees are correct.

Lets use the marbles. Say, sire has 2 red, and 2 green. And damm has 2 red, and 2 blue. Mix all 8 in a bag, pull out 4, that's the calf. Good chance calf will carry red traits. Go extreme, sire has 3 red, and 1 green. And damm has 3 red, and 1 green. That's linebreeding. Other extreme, sire has 1 red, 1green, 1 blue, and 1 yellow. Now damm has 1 purple, 1 black, 1 orange, and 1 white. Mix all 8 in the bag, who knows what four you'll pull out, that's composite.

Marbles - got it! (did you take those marbles from aj?) - Makes sense thanks. So Improver the 3rd was your bull and he was not the son of Deerpark Improver? Have I got that as well? tx dl
 

Gypsy

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I maybe wrong in this (won't be the first time!) but, after reading these posts, I am sure wishing that some Maine breeders had done more line breeding and less flushing.  Looks like to me as if that would have eliminated many of the big time contributors  to the proliferation of the defect?
 

knabe

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yes, because on a test cross of say 16 daughters of a bull bred back to the bull, they theorhetically would have come up with 8 dead calves, rather than just hearing about it from customers and scratching their head and saying, yeah, but that great one, you have to flush to get them, and it's worth it.  since very few bulls are really that great, and most good bulls get ignored quickly due to fads, ie, angus or charolais with mustaches or birth marks (chi and still called angus or charolais), i'd rather have a good herd, than a good bull anyday.
 

ELBEE

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Marbles, picked that up from a discussion on SS about TH. Guess it was AJ. Personally I like latitude lines better, since we're walkin the Mason Dixon.

Deerpark Improver 3rd wasn't even registered when my father purchased him. C.D.Swaffer was ASA secretary at the time, I guess he and the staff\board came up with the parentage. Deerpark Improver #3684142 is the sire of record. Hunsely verified the 3rd's blood type in the 80's for AIing. Not until Beever did the TH test did we discover that he (Deerpark Improver 3rd) had no genetic link to Deerpark Improver #3684142, or for that matter a genetic link to any known DNA.  

Believe you, me! Had there been a 5 generation linebred done 30 years ago on either TH or PHA carriers, they would have seen one helluva train wreck.
 

red

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Elbee, thanks for sharing that with us. I bet is many ways you could go back & change the name of your bull since he's not of the Improver bloodlines. I wondered how you were coming up w/ THF cattle if yours had those other Improver bloodlines. Maybe we can just call yours The 3rd!

Red
 

OH Breeder

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ELBEE said:
Well, we're intending on flushing Titan's mom to him. Ron Bolze said she was one of the best he'd ever seen. She is our largest frame, prettiest fronted on the farm. I think you'll also want something with some elevation and neck extension. 

Another analogy on marbles. It's been said that a linebred bull can furnish more than 50% of the gene pool, here's how. Sire has all 4 red marbles. Damm has 1 red and any other combonation of other 3 colors. When the 8 are mixed, then 4  pulled out of the bag, good chance you'll have more than 2 red in calf. You can predict beyond a shadow of doubt, you'll have at least one. So calves will resemble sire,(peas-in-a-pod, cookie-cutter).
Thank you Elbee. I really appreciate/respect your opinion and admire what you have done with your program.
 

genes

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ELBEE said:
Another analogy on marbles. It's been said that a linebred bull can furnish more than 50% of the gene pool, here's how. Sire has all 4 red marbles. Damm has 1 red and any other combonation of other 3 colors. When the 8 are mixed, then 4  pulled out of the bag, good chance you'll have more than 2 red in calf. You can predict beyond a shadow of doubt, you'll have at least one. So calves will resemble sire,(peas-in-a-pod, cookie-cutter).

Just have to put in my two cents here, so no one loses their marbles. ;)  Remember that half of the genetic material always comes from each parent, so really it's more like having two bags you draw out of to make one new one.  So if the cow has a random assortment, well you're grabbing random.  But as you say, if the bulls only got red, you know you're getting red.  So you at least know you are getting those traits in the offspring.  So it lends predictability, and can help maximize the heterosis when you do make crosses.
 

DL

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Who would have thought that Maine-iac's marbles would prove so useful to explain all sorts of things in the cattle industry! I think there must be a marble award somewhere!.  (clapping)
 

deep

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Knabe..... Thanks for including that dog article.  It's interesting.  ? for the vets, experts, etc.  Do all things apply, regardless of whether it is cattle, dogs, cats, sheep etc?  If I understand correctly, linebreeding is okay with purebreds, but not a good thing if you're linebreeding crosses.  Why is this?  Does this apply to dogs as well as cattle?    Thanks

(dog)
 
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