Well the big reason for crossing is to take advantage of hybrid vigour (heterosis) in terms of performance. If you start linebreeding them, you lose that...so then why bother. The point of line breeding purebreds is to provide consistent genetic packages for people who want to make crosses, and maximize heterosis. Really, inbred (which is what linebreeding does) just means more related than the average of the population. If you think of 'the population' as all beef cattle, then all breeds are inbred. If you think of the population as one particular breed, then there are lines and animals within it that are more inbred than others.
Linebreeding
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garybob
Well-known member
As long as "versatile", "something for everyone", and "diversity", when used to describe a breed of beef cattle, doesn't equate to, or, result in, INCONSISTENT PERFORMANCE, when those genetics are applied inn a commercial beef-production setting. Linebreeding, to me, is the only key to consistent, predictable performance, whether purebred, or crossbred.
sjcattleco
Well-known member
Here are 2 senarios that just drive me crazy its as much to do about just general breeding programs but it illistrates as much in one extreme as linebreeding does the other.... And at least in this site I can post it and it won't get hammered....
1 Commercial cowherd say 60-80 cows.. That is pretty good size in this country and certianly not just a hobby. Drive by from the road and see 50% black cows 10% herford 20% white or smoke 15% yellow or yellow baldy and 5% are Red or roan. Cows are in 2-3 groups and guy owns an Angus, a limi and a Black Maine bulls..... I want to just stop and tell that guy that he has to be the biggest idiot in the world and if he was going to all the trouble and effort at least actaully raise something instead of mongrels.
2 club calf producer owns 18 cows spends 47 hrs in 2 weeks on 4 web boards asks 19 questions about bulls he has never seen.. gets replies from people that he does not know... seriously considers some of the advice.... Reality is the advice came from a 13 yr old kid who grandpa has 3 cows... and after all that 18 cows get AIed to 15 different bulls and last year his 2 top selling calves were by the cleanup bull he leased from the shorthorn guy across the county for $350....
1 Commercial cowherd say 60-80 cows.. That is pretty good size in this country and certianly not just a hobby. Drive by from the road and see 50% black cows 10% herford 20% white or smoke 15% yellow or yellow baldy and 5% are Red or roan. Cows are in 2-3 groups and guy owns an Angus, a limi and a Black Maine bulls..... I want to just stop and tell that guy that he has to be the biggest idiot in the world and if he was going to all the trouble and effort at least actaully raise something instead of mongrels.
2 club calf producer owns 18 cows spends 47 hrs in 2 weeks on 4 web boards asks 19 questions about bulls he has never seen.. gets replies from people that he does not know... seriously considers some of the advice.... Reality is the advice came from a 13 yr old kid who grandpa has 3 cows... and after all that 18 cows get AIed to 15 different bulls and last year his 2 top selling calves were by the cleanup bull he leased from the shorthorn guy across the county for $350....
garybob
Well-known member
High-5!!!!!!!
I am speaking of canine here. I don't know if it makes one bit of difference from bovine to canine. Might need an animal doctor to reply, but all are welcome please.
Is it okay medically to breed a half brother to a half sister? Mother of each being the same, fathers would be different. I have never done this. I have heard it is okay and I have heard it is not. I would not want to do it if there is a reason it could be bad for any of the animals involved. Thanks
(dog)
Is it okay medically to breed a half brother to a half sister? Mother of each being the same, fathers would be different. I have never done this. I have heard it is okay and I have heard it is not. I would not want to do it if there is a reason it could be bad for any of the animals involved. Thanks
(dog)
red
Well-known member
sjcattleco said:
Scott- you nailed us to the T almost! We have just the two bulls though. A Maine & an Angus & use some AI'ing. That is the farm. Now for hubby & myself, we're almost 100% purebred Maine.
Ain't life fun!!!! (lol)
Red
OH Breeder
Well-known member
sjcattleco said:
I like to get opinions on the latest AI bulls, but what is nice about this site, is the ability for folks to post there progency. I agree with you on the whole internet thing. I have said that for years, be cautious and screen.
The thing that I have never understood, is why the clean up bull is not acceptable. My best calves have come from my herd bull. AI for club calves pretty much.
sjcattleco said:
I'm sorry...I don't think I'm quite getting the point here (Maybe I just feel the need to defend my own mongrel herd ;D). If it is a commercial guy some of those mongrel cows are probably benefiting from the heterosis for their maternal traits. But, that's when it's especially important for him to be able to go to the purebred guy who has been breeding (and linebreeding) for consistency so he can get a bull that he knows will stamp them just how he wants.
What I don't get is when people have a "commercial purebred" herd, and don't crossbreed at all. Heterosis is pretty much as close to a freebie as you can get in cattle breeding. I don't see any reason not to use it at all. I mean I understand if a guy runs say angus bulls, and has 5 angus cows he likes, he isn't going to sell them, and they don't warrant buying their own bull. But I don't understand when the whole herd is one breed. Or even just having purebred cows. We often just think of hybrid vigour in terms of the performance in growth and performance traits in calves, but it can also give a boost to cow performance traits such as fertility and milking ability.
But if you are just referring to the people where there's no planning involved in who is breeding what, well then, yes, there is much of that abound.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
This may sound stupid, but I have to ask. Would you benefit from heterosis if you bought a purebred bull to breed your purebred cows, only the bull is from waaayy different genetics than what you already have?
sjcattleco
Well-known member
shortyjock89 said:
Depends on if your cows were linebred or the bull was linebred....If either side of the equation is then you will see more progress made toward your goal... Heterosis is basically weight gain without necessarily increasing frame size, and that is it. The breeding program you describe is what 99% of purebred breeders do now.. out cross system...Also that type of breeding program is what EPD's are based on so they are promoted by acedemia because that is what they understand....
ELBEE
Well-known member
Deep, it's O.K., If your really in love with the related you speak of, go ahead and breed them, you'll be just fine.
" Commercial cattlemen don't want to buy heterosis, they want to sell it."
" Commercial cattlemen don't want to buy heterosis, they want to sell it."
knabe
Well-known member
for a different take, here is an article on consanguineous marriage. where 1C =first cousing marriage. there is a table listing the different types of relatedness marriages. amazing the average for some cultures. yes those numbers really are above 50% of marriages are first cousin.
www.stanford.edu/group/morrinst/pdf/MorrisonPN0074.pdf
dogs, for any breed, it depends on what genes and alleles are in a population as to whether there will be disasters. there is a hurdle if the desired gene is dominant or recessive. today, we don't "kill" as many slight defects as we used to because they have promoted lines in them. too many wilburs today. not enough test crosses are done to determine if "fixed" traits are homozygous dominant, which may be why some individuals make look great, but are incosistent breeders, which may also be due to what the gene distribution in the bred to population is. homozygous recessive is easy, because if you don't have both, then you don't have any results. there is a linebred group of shorthorns at kansas state or oklahoma state, i can't remeber, where they are basically runts and very bulldoggy, been inbred for probably 50 years. anyone know about them? are they still around? awesome group of cattle to find some phenotypic traits
for another tangent, most agrinomically important crops have had their chromosomes doubled once if not twice. when this happens, the seed portion of the plant is enlarged. corn is a good example where the ancient line has a little seed head and todays lines have gross oversized sexual organs.
it is claimed that corn is so oversexed now that it can't reseed itself. i find this a little misleading as i get volunteer plants in my garden all the time when i switch fields.
www.stanford.edu/group/morrinst/pdf/MorrisonPN0074.pdf
dogs, for any breed, it depends on what genes and alleles are in a population as to whether there will be disasters. there is a hurdle if the desired gene is dominant or recessive. today, we don't "kill" as many slight defects as we used to because they have promoted lines in them. too many wilburs today. not enough test crosses are done to determine if "fixed" traits are homozygous dominant, which may be why some individuals make look great, but are incosistent breeders, which may also be due to what the gene distribution in the bred to population is. homozygous recessive is easy, because if you don't have both, then you don't have any results. there is a linebred group of shorthorns at kansas state or oklahoma state, i can't remeber, where they are basically runts and very bulldoggy, been inbred for probably 50 years. anyone know about them? are they still around? awesome group of cattle to find some phenotypic traits
for another tangent, most agrinomically important crops have had their chromosomes doubled once if not twice. when this happens, the seed portion of the plant is enlarged. corn is a good example where the ancient line has a little seed head and todays lines have gross oversized sexual organs.
it is claimed that corn is so oversexed now that it can't reseed itself. i find this a little misleading as i get volunteer plants in my garden all the time when i switch fields.Exactly Elbee. That quote sums it up exactly. Like I said before, heterosis is an increase in performance that you get when crossing two unrelated lines. It isn't just about weight gain in calves, though that is one trait that certainly benefits. It influences a whole host of traits.
If the lines are very different, the answer is yes. However, the more drastic differences you see between the parents, the greater the heterosis. The very drastic crosses such as Bramhan to continental or British breeds get the most benefit.
Another thing to note about heterosis is that it doesn't just occur with that first cross....you get it on the next one as long as you use a different breed again. So say you have a Maine Angus cow, she has the full benefits of heterosis for herself, and then if you breed to Simmental, the calf still has 100% heterosis as well. But, if you cross back to one of the original breeds, then you don't get the maximum heterosis.
It's very difficult to efficiently incorporate dominance and epistatic effects (which are the causes of heterosis) into the models used to calculate EPDs, so you are right in that they aren't included, and it could give a little edge to the outbred animals. However, it is hardly because the academics don't understand. From comments on the cattle boards, I get the idea that people think academics are sitting behind some desk not knowing what a cow is. This couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the professors in the my department, especially the ones in animal breeding, grew up raising livestock. In fact, my advisor still has a small commercial beef herd to go home to after work. All of our current beef genetics grad students (yes, myself included) come from a beef farm. We are hardly out of touch. Yes, it is hard to perfectly model reality, especially in beef cattle where every guy can do whatever he wants in his own herd, but it doesn't mean that useful stuff can't still come out of the academic work. It's about doing the best we can, using as much information as possible, and constantly trying to improve.
shortyjock89 said:
If the lines are very different, the answer is yes. However, the more drastic differences you see between the parents, the greater the heterosis. The very drastic crosses such as Bramhan to continental or British breeds get the most benefit.
Another thing to note about heterosis is that it doesn't just occur with that first cross....you get it on the next one as long as you use a different breed again. So say you have a Maine Angus cow, she has the full benefits of heterosis for herself, and then if you breed to Simmental, the calf still has 100% heterosis as well. But, if you cross back to one of the original breeds, then you don't get the maximum heterosis.
sjcattleco said:
It's very difficult to efficiently incorporate dominance and epistatic effects (which are the causes of heterosis) into the models used to calculate EPDs, so you are right in that they aren't included, and it could give a little edge to the outbred animals. However, it is hardly because the academics don't understand. From comments on the cattle boards, I get the idea that people think academics are sitting behind some desk not knowing what a cow is. This couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the professors in the my department, especially the ones in animal breeding, grew up raising livestock. In fact, my advisor still has a small commercial beef herd to go home to after work. All of our current beef genetics grad students (yes, myself included) come from a beef farm. We are hardly out of touch. Yes, it is hard to perfectly model reality, especially in beef cattle where every guy can do whatever he wants in his own herd, but it doesn't mean that useful stuff can't still come out of the academic work. It's about doing the best we can, using as much information as possible, and constantly trying to improve.
ELBEE
Well-known member
My father only had 8 years of formal education, but carried more knowledge under his Steson than any human being I've ever known. He could analyze any equine or bovine in 2 seconds, and remember that analogy from then on.
All I know for sure is, Deerpark Improver 3rd came out of Quane's herd.
All I know for sure is, Deerpark Improver 3rd came out of Quane's herd.
sjcattleco said:
Thanks guys - learned quite a bit on this thread - sjcc your #2 comment above touches on something that drives me nuts about some posts and which I have refrained (yes you may call it incredible restrain)
a)"Bought a bunch of Fat Ass heifers bred to Big Bone what should I expect? (did it ever occur to you to ask that question before you bought them???)
b)Got a Sweet and Pretty heifer and want to breed her to Big Dumb Guy - wht u tnk? (sorry can't really do the vernacular! and why would I care why someone I don't know who has never seen my heifer or the bull thinks?)
c) My all time favorite - I have a small framed 8 mo old show heifer that I want to breed next month to a really good clubby bull - I was thinking about "Big Giant Dead Calf Bull - what do ya think?
sorry sometimes I just can't help myself -Deep will read the dog stuff and get back with ya......also after I become smarter will discuss it with a friend theultimate breeder of K9s...everyone have a great one, dl
ELBEE said:
That's just the thing. I try not to judge people on where there knowledge comes from, because if they have it they have it. And different people have different kinds of knowledge, so the more they can learn from each other, the better.
Line breeding can be very tricky. To be certain a bull has no genetic defects it would need to bred to 16 of his daughters. If there were no defects you are nearly 100% sure there are none. Linebreeding a cow is somewhat different in that you don't have the data on the bull.Unless you have the finances to withstand some throw away babies be careful with this.red said:
Jerry
red
Well-known member
Yes, I agree Jerry! I just find it interesting from those that have been doing it a long, long time w/ sucess.
You'll have to check under the thread of old pictures. There is a black cow with white socks you might remember! Too bad I don't have any of Polly around!
Red
You'll have to check under the thread of old pictures. There is a black cow with white socks you might remember! Too bad I don't have any of Polly around!
Red
sjcattleco
Well-known member
We picked out our best cow ever and decided to add her son back in to our herd... First thing I did was breed him to every maternal relative he had... it amounted to 12--13 head... No problems.... some were just calves none of them burnt the world up but none were black or had any other terrible defect that could happen! Planning on trying the cross again hopefully calves will be better since cows are older and should milk more.
