name of bull?

[librarian]

I got this picture off SP, but didn't get the name. Could someone help me identify him?
Thanks.
Oh, when I attached it, I see the name. I'll leave it up anyway because he's so nice to look at. Any stories about him?

 

[justintime]

I remember this bull very well. He was a son of Kinnaber Leader 6th and he was used in the Thomas herd and then sold to the Cecil Staples herd in Alberta. I am thinking he was born in the late 60s. When Dan Stephenson (diamond) took over the Staples herd, I believe Leader 13C went there to work as well. I expect Dan can give a lot more information on him. I remember seeing 13C walking the pastures at Thomas Farms and he was a very impressive sire. He would be a very popular bull today. Super thick, easy fleshing, totally sound in every way. What are the chances that Dan has a little semen from this bull hidden in a semen tank some place?  If he has some, I would love to talk with him.

For some reason, I remember the calves off Leader 13C being very good, but they were never received that well in the Thomas -Gordon- Draper sales in Manitoba. I expect it may have been that he was always in the shadow of his sire Kinnaber Leader 6th, who was a most impressive sire.

 

[librarian]

Thank you. That is really one of my favorite photos. I should have studied up on the pedigree, but I couldn't remember who he was.
Now I see he had a couple daughters that were bred back to Leader 6th. That would be a neat mating to try again.
Who was the Carona Perfect bull? Wasn't the Carona herd  in Scotland?

 

[librarian]

I am studying this now and see how wound up the pedigree is with Cherry Hill Royal Oak. Who was he and who is HL Straus?
Who is Carl M Johnson?
Corona Perfect was the sire of good old Ball Dee Perfect Count and his half brother was the sire of Lynnwood Reward.
Cherry Hill Royal Oak was polled.

 

[justintime]

Thank you. That is really one of my favorite photos. I should have studied up on the pedigree, but I couldn't remember who he was.
Now I see he had a couple daughters that were bred back to Leader 6th. That would be a neat mating to try again.
Who was the Carona Perfect bull? Wasn't the Carona herd  in Scotland?

Carona Farms were one of the earliest Polled Shorthorn herds in the US and were in Indiana. Carona Perfect sold in one of their sales to Dave Ball who owned the Ball Dee herd in Alberta. Dave was able to buy him for a very reasonable price because most breeders felt he was too big framed for that era. I remember Dave Ball telling us, that Carona tried to buy him back after the sale as they felt he was the best bull they had ever raised. The only reason they had offered him in the sale was because they still had his sire and dam in their herd.
The Ball Dee herd was located very close to where my mother had grown up just a few miles SW of Edmonton. I remember my parents stopping in there when I was a kid and I can  remember seeing Carona Perfect out on pasture. He was pretty impressive and he would be today. The Ball Dee herd was one of the largest Polled Shorthorn herds at that time with over 120 breeding age females. I also remember Dave Ball offering the entire herd to my dad at $300 per cow/ calf pair I( if he took them all). Dave Ball was having health problems at the time and was concerned he would not be able to look after the herd. The Ball Dee cows were bigger than most Shorthorns of that day but they were very good!  I also remember my dad commenting that he had never seen a herd that had such great udders. Dad did not take Dave Ball's offer but he mentioned for many years that this was probably one of the biggest mistakes he ever made.

 

[RyanChandler]

Corona Perfect was the sire of good old Ball Dee Perfect Count

And Perfect Count was most notably the sire of...

 

[knabe]

What an idiot.

 

[librarian]

Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.
Do you think that picture was taken in Canada?  How big would 13C have been compared to bulls today?

13C's grand dam, Thomas Perfect Rita 2T, was also the dam of Thomas Leader 5X. Was he known for anything?
I don't understand why there is a big blank where his maternal grand sire should be. Did they run multiple bulls or something?

 

[justintime]

The picture of Thomas Leader 13C was taken at Thomas Farms, Hartney, Manitoba and I think he was approximately a 3 year old when it was taken. He would compare quite favorably size wise to many beef Shorthorn bulls today. I do not remember Thomas Leader 5X but he certainly may have been a very good bull. The Thomas herd sold lots of bulls to commercial producers and he may have been one of them. As for the blank space in the pedigree, that could well be due to the age of the bull in question. When the registry records were moved from typed files to computer, many of the older ones were never moved to the computerized record. If need be, you can contact the registry and they can go back and look up the old records which are in books and they will send you the missing portion of the pedigrees.

 

[Okotoks]

The picture of Thomas Leader 13C was taken at Thomas Farms, Hartney, Manitoba and I think he was approximately a 3 year old when it was taken. He would compare quite favorably size wise to many beef Shorthorn bulls today. I do not remember Thomas Leader 5X but he certainly may have been a very good bull. The Thomas herd sold lots of bulls to commercial producers and he may have been one of them. As for the blank space in the pedigree, that could well be due to the age of the bull in question. When the registry records were moved from typed files to computer, many of the older ones were never moved to the computerized record. If need be, you can contact the registry and they can go back and look up the old records which are in books and they will send you the missing portion of the pedigrees.

I actually took that photo of 13C at one of the Diamond lease pastures near Bindloss, Alberta probably when he was 3 years old . It was located along HWY 41 just on the east side so probably within 20 miles of the Saskatchewan border. 13C would have been used in the Thomas herd as yearling before Cecil Staples bought him in 1972. I believe the Thomas herd went to the US in either 1972 or 1973. The first crop by Leader 13C at Diamond were out of two yearold Thoms Max 11Z heifers. My Dad and I bought a cow bred to Thomas Leader 13C in 1973, Diamond May 5th and still have descendants of theresulting heifer calf. Crowfoot Shorthorns bought Diamond Dottie 2nd bred to 13C the same year and my wife bought the heifer she had when she was a 9 year old cow. Diamond Dottie 2nd was alos the dam of Crowfoot Flag 6H, the sire of Gafa Mohican.
In 1975 Cecil traded Thomas Leader 13C to the Greens, Zealandia, Sask for White Rock Cliff, he is pictured in the same pasture in 1976. The cows in both photos are daughters of Thomas Max 11Z.

 

[justintime]

I apologize Dan regarding where the picture was taken. Ross Thomas used it in one of the Thomas -Draper-Gordon sale catalogs and I " assumed" it was taken there. The Thomas herd was a great set of cows that were ran on a commercial basis.

 

[librarian]

This sure is interesting.
I see from this other post that Okotoks thinks a lot of 13C and those 11Z daughters.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/4-new-matings
That 5X was also out of Max Leader. Maybe throw him into the imaginary mix.
Was Thomas using AI with Corona Perfect? It seems like maybe be was a real cowmaker? I wonder if there is semen on him somewhere.
It must have been a great time back then for driving around the countryside looking at other peoples' cattle. (worlds greatest pastime)

What do you think we have gained most on Shorthorns since then and what have we lost most? If the Rita cows were a type, what type would they be?
Too many questions, I know.

 

[Okotoks]

This sure is interesting.
I see from this other post that Okotoks thinks a lot of 13C and those 11Z daughters.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/4-new-matings
That 5X was also out of Max Leader. Maybe throw him into the imaginary mix.
Was Thomas using AI with Corona Perfect? It seems like maybe be was a real cowmaker? I wonder if there is semen on him somewhere.
It must have been a great time back then for driving around the countryside looking at other peoples' cattle. (worlds greatest pastime)

What do you think we have gained most on Shorthorns since then and what have we lost most? If the Rita cows were a type, what type would they be?
Too many questions, I know.

What have we gained most or lost really depends on what bloodlines and geography you decide to look at. I feel the shorthorns in our area have more to offer the commercial breeding programs than the shorthorns of the 60s 70s or 80s did. The Thomas Max 11Z bull was a 100% dehorner and left females with very good feet and udders. At the time Cecil Staples was looking to change to a polled herd. The calves by him had tremendous early performance  and matured early. His daughters were not as big as their dams at maturity. Thomas Leader 13Cs daughters were similar but probably longer, again with very good udders and feet. (The horned cows had been selected for good udders and feet, bad feet or bad udders earned a quick trip to town) I think that most of the western Canadian cattle have more performance and better feed conversion today.
Very selective use of some of these older lines can give you some traits that are useful but I feel it is a case of bringing the bloodline in and then selecting from successive crosses back on todays bloodlines that will give the most value.

 

[librarian]

Very selective use of some of these older lines can give you some traits that are useful but I feel it is a case of bringing the bloodline in and then selecting from successive crosses back on todays bloodlines that will give the most value.

Thanks for your insight. I have been learning this idea through my many mistakes.
To attempt selection for a particular purpose from a blend of old and new genetics, maybe with more type prejudice than breed prejudice in the early stages, then dam up the gene pool and be open minded as environment does the sort.
But, I still wish I had a little time machine- maybe go take a look at Oakwood Memory.

 

[r.n.reed]

I am studying this now and see how wound up the pedigree is with Cherry Hill Royal Oak. Who was he and who is HL Straus?
Who is Carl M Johnson?
Corona Perfect was the sire of good old Ball Dee Perfect Count and his half brother was the sire of Lynnwood Reward.
Cherry Hill Royal Oak was polled.

Carl Johnsons Carona farm was located here in Illinois at Dekalb and was started in 1921.Like the Lynnwood herd it was heavily influenced by the Hultine Collynie herd.H.L.Straus's Cherry Hill herd was also deep in Hultine breeding but he brought in the horned Royal Leader 2nd bull from Wilson's Edellyn herd on the north side of Chicago where the Gurnee Mills shopping center is now.I can't say for sure but from what I can tell the 2nd was probably more of the compact type and offered an outcross to polled branch of the breed.Straus was killed in a plane crash I think and his program was short lived.
10 years ago this conversation would have had little to no relevance to modern day breeding programs as almost all ties to the old blood had been eliminated or held on to by a very thin thread.Due to the use again of some of these old bulls it is good to study their history and the herds they came from so as to make an informed decision on what might work for your program. I agree with Dan that these old bloodlines are not the total answer but should be looked at as a tool to help you get where you want to be.
When I saw the Thomas cows after they wound up in Ohio,I was told by the manager of that fine establishment that the cows had been bred Maine for a while before coming to the US.I didn't see it in the cow herd but some of the show cattle said to be from those cows sure made me think he was telling the truth.

 

[librarian]

Thank you r.n., for the background. The breeders are always as interesting as the animals. I had been wondering about the Edellyn bulls, where and why, and you answered it for me.