Need some breeding advice

[Dooling1]

I have been toying with the idea of flushing out most productive donor to a clubby bull.

She our Rainbow Snowflower cow and can be seen at www.diamondmshorthorns.com

Anyway, we have only bred her clubby one time to Kool, and had great success with bull and heifer calves (see DMS Snowflower on the webpage). However, we have been told by several people that we should breed her black to make blue roans. Here is the problem. I don't know what is the best bull to flush her too. (Although Sullivan's new blue roan calf looks the part). The other issue is that I don't know if I can successfully market all of the calves or embryos, since she normally flushes 12-19 eggs.

Therefore, I would be willing to listen to all advice on bulls or if someone wants to share in a flush, that could be arranged too. Thanks in advance.

[email protected]

 

[red]

I moved this here because it is a combination post. You are asking for advice & also wanting to partner w/ someone.

Red

 

[shortyjock89]

I told your dad that I would buy into a flush if you bred her to Jake's Proud Jazz. lol

 

[Telos]

Dooling 1,  I like CB_3 suggestion or even Jake's Proud Jazz sounds good too, along with many other Shorthorn sires. For females, using a Red Angus might be a thought.

When flushing a cow, a marketing strategy should be of some concern, unless you want to keep the females back for your own herd.

I know, too many choices, but that's what make it fun and interesting.

 

[OH Breeder]

Now, don't everyone scream at once,but if it were me and she is sound on her feet. I would use Who Made Who. He would clean up her front end. Hannibal also seems to lengthen them out and add a bit of extension. If she is on the larger side no on hannibal. Tends to put a tick more size in them.
If you like Ali, he would also be a choice for a shorthorn. He does put neck in them. In my limited experience with Ali, I think the cow has to be pretty good, he is not a cow changer. In our area, the Sunseekers are popular. They look great.

 

[sjcattleco]

Well if you want blue babies you cannot breed to a composit black bull that has Shorthorn in him.. It blows your chances for blue roans. I  think i would look at Meyer 734....or a Homo black son of his that would be my pick for a black bull.. and we all know my choice for a Shorthorn...

 

[OH Breeder]

Well if you want blue babies you cannot breed to a composit black bull that has Shorthorn in him.. It blows your chances for blue roans. I  think i would look at Meyer 734....or a Homo black son of his that would be my pick for a black bull.. and we all know my choice for a Shorthorn...

Which composite, Blue blood?

 

[sjcattleco]

I have no clue...

I just know you cannot pic a black composite that has shorthorn in him like HEATSEEKER...

Looking at the cow's pic she needs downsized and balanced out.. she is not deep enough ribbed for her height! Also if she is all mixed up with Appendix blood her ET calves will be a crap shoot...

 

[Jill]

I'd breed a female like her to Sun Seeker. He throws red calves all the time and with a shorthorn cow you should have no problem getting shorthorn marked calves. Maybe a blue roan or a black and white on here and there but mainly reds is what you will have.
I would no breed her to a black bull for blue roans. The blue roan thing is not that hot. Many people don't care for them and its hard to get a solid black calf off of a blue roan cow unless the bull is homozygous solid. Use a shorthorn or red gene carrier clubby. The red clubbies that can show as shorthorn steers is a pretty good deal because the shorthorns are so weak right now in the steer part of the show business so when you see a good red one that can be a shorthorn its worth something.
Your female looks good hipped and choke fronted, I wouldn't hesitate flushing her to Sun Seeker if she was mine. I think you are going to see quite a few people switching to Sun Seeker for their clubbies in the near future. As long as your female has some flex in her hock and plenty mobile on her back legs and I stick a straw of Sun Seeker in her and wait for those shorthorn marked clubbies without ever looking back.

I think if I were breeding her for shorthorn marked calves, why not breed her to Jakes Proud Jazz or another clubbie shorhorn bull where you can actually show the steer as a purebred shorthorn.  Breeding her black does not necessarily mean you will ever get a blue roan, I would breed her for the end product (steer or heifer) you are looking for rather than the color.

 

[red]

CB_3 the only trouble w/ Sunseeker is that they advertize a TH free herd. Don't think they want to flush to a carrier. I dolike SunSeeker though & after seeing his picture am more impressed.

Red

 

[Jill]

Good point, I didn't know about the TH free herd. OK, toss that one out.

Jill, to call a steer a shorthorn all it has to be is shorthorn marked. Their are a lot of solid red calves showing as shorthorns that are actually out of red gene carrier clubbies. Many of them don't even have shorthorn mothers. I have a few right now out of black cows and the calves are red and will be shown as shorthorns. The calves have less than 1/4 shorthorn in them. With steers, anything goes as long as they look close to the breed you put them in. I know of quite a few Heat Wave's that were shown as shorthorns last year. It's just like the Angus, most of the Angus steers are just the lighter muscled black crossbreds that aren't stout enough to run with the Chi's, Maine's, and Crossbred's.

The reason I'm not breeding many shorthorns are because there aren't many out their that have enough muscle, bone, body, and are sound with good fronts and lots of hair. Yes, they are stout for shorthorn standards but it's easier just to use a clubby that will throw better red calves than the shorthorns. Most shorthorns are hatchet @$$ed anyway so even if you got one with some muscle, they usually don't have enough butt. I've about given up on the shorthorns because I haven't seen one in the last 3 years that could produce a big time steer out of a shorthorn cow. Then when you find one that possible could, he is a TH carrier and if I'm going to even use a shorthorn, he is going to be clean. We've all heard the Jake's Proud Jazz story and I'm sure those calves are every bit as good as we are told. I don't doubt that, but I haven't seen any in person and when I'm breeding these shorthorns clubbies and getting red calves that are just as good as the black clubbies but can show as shorthorns, I'm not going to change anything and mess that up.

If you find me a shorthorn bull that is TH free and can throw shorthorn steers and heifers that are just as stout and good as my Sun Seeker X Shorthorn calves, I'm all for it. The problem is I just can't find a shorthorn like that and from what I've heard there isn't one in this new crop of shorthorns that came in this spring.

I don't know about what other states do, but in Kansas it doesn't matter what the markings are it has to be registered 15/16 shorthor or higher I think that applies to the Jr. Nationals also.  We don't breed alot of shorthorns and I don't disagree about stoutness, we do have a RadioActive that will run (at this point, we'll see) but then again, the bull is a PHA carrier.

 

[chambero]

Texas is appearance only for better or worse.  We realized the futility of papers on steers long ago.

 

[genes]

Ok I won't comment on bulls, just the color genetics.  She is a white shorthorn, correct?    This means that bred to a solid colored bull (be it black or red) she will only have roan calves.  Bred to a roan, you would have 50/50 chances between roan and white.

The reasons for this is that roan is a codominant gene, meaning there are two extremes and an intermediate.    So WW gives white, Ww gives roan, and ww gives solid colored cattle.

I'll try to make a punnet square here that shows the 4 possible results of a cross

WW white cow X ww solid bull

____|__W__|__W__
__w_|_Ww_|_Ww__
__w_|_Ww_|_Ww__

So we can see the only option is Ww offspring, so roans


WW white cow X Ww roan bull

____|__W___|__W__
__W_|_WW_|_WW_
__w_|_Ww__|_Ww_

So 50% white, 50% roan



Now with regards to black and red,  black is completely dominant to red, so both BB and Bb look black to us, but the Bb animals can pass on the red b gene.  Red animals are bb.  Underneath your cow's white she has red genes.

bb red cow X  BB black bull

____|__b__|__b__
__B_|_Bb__|_Bb_
__b_|_bb__|_bb_

50% red 50% black.

And bred to red is of course all red.


And with your cow "black" will become blue roan, and "red" becomes red roan


So, if you wanted some blue roans, but not necessarily all blue roans, using a black red carrier bull (Bb) would be one way to put your chances at getting about half blue.  Of course, thsoe are just probabilities, you never know what roll of the dice will happen that time.

 

[red]

(pop)

Thank you Genes for explaining the coloration mysteries to us!

Red

 

[justme]

yEAH!  Genes is back! 8)

 

[shortyjock89]

Just gonna say a little something about the whole Shorthon steers only having to look like a shorthorn to show as one.  Here in IL, there are alot of Shorthorn breeders. (the cow that's being flushed lives in IL, so it has  relavance) I'm not saying that some of those steers don't have fudged papers, but alot of them are honest to God Shorthorns.  Here in IL, Shorthorn steers are pretty tough, and I think it might be the same across the country.  So what I'm getting at is: If there is a Shorthorn marked crossbred, and you think he could win the Shorthorn show, don't you think he could win the crossbred show too?  Both shows are tough, if the calf is that good, he's gonna win anyhow, so why not be honest?

 

[shortdawg]

Dooling, The steer in my profile is a Jake's Proud Jazz out of a Navaho (SH) cow. I think he would work on your cow.

 

[shortyjock89]

Dooling, The steer in my profile is a Jake's Proud Jazz out of a Navaho (SH) cow. I think he would work on your cow.

After seeing the cow in person, JPJ was the exact bull that I would use on her.  That cow is the most impressive cow I have seen at her age (11 years, I believe?).  Very good cow, and putting a little bit of a clubby twist to her would be awesome!

 

[xxcc]

you may think i am terribly old schooled, and the turnout would be 50-50 red factored and black factored, but i might try Chill Factor if i was you.

 

[shorthorns r us]

It came echoing over the crowd from the clubby breeder in back of the room.  Try Charolais-ais-ais!  white warrior?  prime cut?  anything hoo doo?  madrid?  if you can find any, chunky monkey?  sir duke?