New Argument....

[j3cattleco]

I guess I look at this whole debate a little differently, first we have a few employees and pay over 1.2 million dollars a year in just payroll.  that doesn't include free healthcare that we provide to some, partial healthcare that we provide to all.  Employment Taxes, our part of social security, workmans comp insurance and the other "taxes" that get included.  I feel that labor should be viewed as any other resource, supply and demand.  I personally do not feel that any one person should be guaranteed a pay rate just because of a card in their pocket nor do I believe in guaranteed contracts of any kind.  I believe in absolute pay based on performance.  Our upper management has the opportunity for almost a 20% increase in yearly salary based on performance incentives.  We make money they make money.  I think that is how every job should be.  I think that unions had a place and time, however I feel that time has come and gone.  I do agree that the biggest problems with unionized fields, is both parties look at the other as enemies instead of necessities.  I do however feel this resentment has come from both sides trying to take advantage of the other.  

 

[farwest]

Supply and Demand labor for large companies that the economy is dependent on??  Those workers have an agreement to do a job, to provide labor for that company when the company and economy is denpendent on it regardless of time and conditions, and for that those workers are working under protected wages.

 

[j3cattleco]

I guess I don't neccessarily understand your point farwest.  I am trying, but tell me why supply and demand won't work.  if those companies provide a product that is in demand, then they will have demand for labor.  If the labor pool is weak then those with the highest level of skills will be the ones in the most demand therefore they will demand the most pay.  Why doesn't that work.  If the company isn't producing a product that is in demand or the workers are not providing a labor force that is in demand then their demand of product will, whether that's consumables or service, will evaporate.  Thus correcting the market.  Supply and demand works for every other type of commodity why shouldn't it for labor.  Labor is just a refined commodity on most fronts anyways.

 

[farwest]

Supply and demand works for every other market! six months ago a barrel of oil at 148 bucks, today 43, that ain't supply and demand, it's corruption within ,

 

[Dusty]

The thing I don't like about Unions is that they don't give anyone the incentive to go the extra mile.  i was brought up that if you wanted to get ahead you had to be willing to do more than the guy next to you.  This isn't possible with unions as promotions and pay are based mainly on seniority.  I've worked in what would be called management for the past few years and I will say that whenever time allows I am not afraid of getting out of the office and helping outside.  I have seen several sunrises from the top of a railcar while helping to load a corn train.  I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a union shop.  In a union shop there is no incentive for people do any more than what is in their job description.  I have come to hate the phrase "that's not my department."  People try harder to get out of doing something than if they just did it. 
That being said I don't think all union workers are lazy, the vast majority are honest men trying to make an honest living.  However the union tends to protect people who probably aren't worth their pay, but they are in the union so nothing can be done.  A prime example are teachers who no way should be allowed to teach kids, but are protected by the teachers union so it is damn near impossible to get rid of them.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I never thought I would say this BUT...... I absolutely agree with Dusty.  RW

 

[austin]

I agree with you entirely, Dusty. Union shop isn't the "American Way."

 

[j3cattleco]

no it's not corruption it's called inelasticities.  Some products will have larger shifts in demand at given prices changes than others.  The speculators understood the inelastic nature of oil and rode that until they finally started to see a shift in consumption.  Then when the bump in the economy hit, sub-prime mortgage ordeal, the speculators pulled out and locked into more secure markets outside of the speculative.  You say that's corruption,  I don't like it that speculators drove the market that high, but when there is not change in demand why shouldn't they keep pushing the price. I do feel that it's corruption when workers take advantage of a system and work beneath the standard when they are guaranteed a paycheck. Just like tenure at a school or university, my wife works for a university and I hate the idea of tenure.  I understand the need for it in the past but think it has outlived it's usefullness.

 

[JbarL]

Today our govenor proposed an economic stimulus package that basically builds roads and repairs school buildings. That MIGHT give a few unemployed people a JOB. Mostly it will provide more work for illegal aliens (don't get me started about the drag they have on the economy), as the companies that bid these projects the lowest always use the cheapest labor, of course.

Manufacturing in the US is for ever gone on the scale that it once was. Actually producing something of value one of the few ways a cmpany can make a profit and still provide good pay to its employees. This house of cards "service economy " has collapsed. The only way that I see to provide new jobs that pay well is for the federal government to heavily invest in energy self sufficiency. That is a sector that could provide good paying jobs for all skill levels of employees and help the country at the same time. However, I cringe at anything the deferal government might do to "help" us. Plus all this energy independence will be forgotten just like it was in the 80's if fuel continues to drop in price or stays where it is for a long period.

It's raining here, I can't do anything outside, I got all day to look up facts and argue 

i think that  is going to be the cruxt of the bisquit gw....these jobs and projects that "will" be started up, and having labor and skills jobs avaliable has to be done in an "organized fashion"...or illegals "will" do it....this could be there holy grail.....but i think the labor movement has been waiting to long to let this oppertunity get buy...and as much as i know that makes some cringe....i also know what the unions have  learned along the way in the last 30 yrs as well....making it a two way street,  as far west implied...having a "dependable" ( shows up everyday...for 30 yrs)..skilled, reliable work force is a big plus to any industry or employer...organized labor can supply that ( and has been for many years)....even ( and especially now) the lower end labor jobs at the end of a shovel, or handing up blocks, or carrin' shingles have its worth to emplores  in reliablility and continuitiy...since ive been in florida, here more than ever...the ole addage  sure rings true...pay peanuts...get monkeys.....i'd  like to see our kids have the oppertunity to be able to take advantage of the up comming oppertunities and still be able to get an education...i sure dont want to have to tell my kid, that going to work somewhere is dangereous becaues its full of illegals....and then it will tryly  be a "job americans wont do"...if it doesnt come with an organized effort and decent ground rules it will become an unhealthy arena for sure.......organized labor controls nepitism and croniesism ,...and the last years of illegals having dry wall crews, electrical services, day   labor crews, painting crews...all over the country is
the most dangerous degree of nepitistic behavior that large employers have ever "been allowed" to enjoy.  amercian organized labor wont let this happen if they can.  at that point it wont be old cliches, and passed down horror stories that is going to define " amercian labor"...it's going to be what this upcomming generation makes it......most anti union folks i know, when asked....all say that if there daughter were to want to  marry a guy who was in a union and supplied a steady wage and benifts to support his daughter and there future family...they all  shortly admitted that......it was a great relief to feel that security as a parent....and non of them seemed it was important enough to feell the need to step in and "talk them of  out marring that...that unioun guy...cudos to both sides of this topic ....i'd like to see our kids and tihs generation get to enjoy an education, and the oppertunty to work, at the same time......but they too, have  to be aware of  the dangers of what   " jobs amercians wont do" could mean,  and not let a climate of low paying jobs occupied by illegals and undepenables dominate any pay scale of the work force...jbarl

 

[GONEWEST]

I guess I look at this whole debate a little differently, first we have a few employees and pay over 1.2 million dollars a year in just payroll.  that doesn't include free healthcare that we provide to some, partial healthcare that we provide to all.  Employment Taxes, our part of social security, workmans comp insurance and the other "taxes" that get included.  I feel that labor should be viewed as any other resource, supply and demand.  I personally do not feel that any one person should be guaranteed a pay rate just because of a card in their pocket nor do I believe in guaranteed contracts of any kind.  I believe in absolute pay based on performance.  Our upper management has the opportunity for almost a 20% increase in yearly salary based on performance incentives.  We make money they make money.  I think that is how every job should be.  I think that unions had a place and time, however I feel that time has come and gone.  I do agree that the biggest problems with unionized fields, is both parties look at the other as enemies instead of necessities.  I do however feel this resentment has come from both sides trying to take advantage of the other.  

Knowing the things you stand for I have a hard time believing that you truly view people as a commodity. The reason supply/demand doesn't work for labor is because the laborers are people not commodities. Corn isn't dependent upon the price of corn. Corn doesn't care if it rains, if there is too much corn, if illegal mexican corn comes in and inflates the vegetable/feedstuff  pool, corn doesn't even care if it gets planted or not. It doesn't even care if you take away the corn production plants and fill them with grass, fence them in and call them pastures. Corn just is. As is every other commodity.

Farmers manipulate corn to get as much out of the corn plant as possible and it really doesn't matter to the corn that they do this. The corn will work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for whatever water and fertilizer the farmer will give it. Again, from being in management in several corporations, large and small for 25 years, I can assure you that given the opportunity the management would treat the worker just as the farmer does the corn. work him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with as little fertilizer and water as possible. Because that is how people are wired. They are greedy. Its what is good for me and who cares about you.

How many is a few employees? If your payroll is 1.2 million a year and the average pay is 30,000 you have 40. Thats not a few. The mentality of your bonus issue is why there has to be at least a threat of organization of employees. The upper level management can get a 20% bonus? In my ENTIRE career,  I have NEVER seen a manager that a company would miss if he were gone. EVER.  I guarantee you those managers aren't the ones who are making the money, it's the laborers that are getting the job done. It's the salesmen making the sale.  Do they have an opportunity to get a 20% increase in yearly salary based on performance incentives? 

But my main problem with your argument is the premise about the company producing a product that is in demand. I don't care how good your product is, if I can't afford it, I can't buy it, no matter how much I would like to. If I don't work for a company tha has an enterprise that is profitable enough to AND the company is willing to pay me enough to be able to buy your product, it matters not the quality, the efficiency or ingenuity in which it was made, or the demand. And obviously by your statements you don't feel like your employees should make enough to afford your product. They are commodities. So who buys it? Employees of other companies? If people don't have disposable income, there is zero fuel to the economy. It's what makes it run. A few having lots of disposable income doesn't work.

 

[GONEWEST]

The thing I don't like about Unions is that they don't give anyone the incentive to go the extra mile.  i was brought up that if you wanted to get ahead you had to be willing to do more than the guy next to you.  This isn't possible with unions as promotions and pay are based mainly on seniority.  I've worked in what would be called management for the past few years and I will say that whenever time allows I am not afraid of getting out of the office and helping outside.  I have seen several sunrises from the top of a railcar while helping to load a corn train.  I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a union shop.  In a union shop there is no incentive for people do any more than what is in their job description.  I have come to hate the phrase "that's not my department."  People try harder to get out of doing something than if they just did it. 
That being said I don't think all union workers are lazy, the vast majority are honest men trying to make an honest living.  However the union tends to protect people who probably aren't worth their pay, but they are in the union so nothing can be done.  A prime example are teachers who no way should be allowed to teach kids, but are protected by the teachers union so it is damn near impossible to get rid of them.

Dusty,

As I stated earlier, I'm neither for or against unions. But my last corporate stop was VP. So I know management.

How far did loading that rail car get you ahead so far? Did you get paid extra to do it? You are the kind of person people who are in the position I held just love to have around. People who work their butts off and make our jobs easier. A couple a thank you's and atta boys and you can't wait to do more. 10 years later and its time for a lay off and sorry Dusty but it's outta my hands, you gotta go. Thanks for all your hard work.

I'm a lot older than you and I hate to be so pessimistic, but I know how this works. I don't want to throw cold water on you or any other young persons enthusiasm. But you can disagree with everything I ever have to say, but you remember this...if you don't watch out for Dusty, no one else will. They will take advantage of you every time you turn around. One of the reasons I went to work on my own was that it ate me alive to be part of an organization that took advantage of hard working people who were willing to do anything just in order to get by week to week.

 

[Dusty]

The thing I don't like about Unions is that they don't give anyone the incentive to go the extra mile.  i was brought up that if you wanted to get ahead you had to be willing to do more than the guy next to you.  This isn't possible with unions as promotions and pay are based mainly on seniority.  I've worked in what would be called management for the past few years and I will say that whenever time allows I am not afraid of getting out of the office and helping outside.  I have seen several sunrises from the top of a railcar while helping to load a corn train.  I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a union shop.  In a union shop there is no incentive for people do any more than what is in their job description.  I have come to hate the phrase "that's not my department."  People try harder to get out of doing something than if they just did it. 
That being said I don't think all union workers are lazy, the vast majority are honest men trying to make an honest living.  However the union tends to protect people who probably aren't worth their pay, but they are in the union so nothing can be done.  A prime example are teachers who no way should be allowed to teach kids, but are protected by the teachers union so it is damn near impossible to get rid of them.

Dusty,

As I stated earlier, I'm neither for or against unions. But my last corporate stop was VP. So I know management.

How far did loading that rail car get you ahead so far? Did you get paid extra to do it? You are the kind of person people who are in the position I held just love to have around. People who work their butts off and make our jobs easier. A couple a thank you's and atta boys and you can't wait to do more. 10 years later and its time for a lay off and sorry Dusty but it's outta my hands, you gotta go. Thanks for all your hard work.

I'm a lot older than you and I hate to be so pessimistic, but I know how this works. I don't want to throw cold water on you or any other young persons enthusiasm. But you can disagree with everything I ever have to say, but you remember this...if you don't watch out for Dusty, no one else will. They will take advantage of you every time you turn around. One of the reasons I went to work on my own was that it ate me alive to be part of an organization that took advantage of hard working people who were willing to do anything just in order to get by week to week.

I never got paid extra until it came time to hand out year end bonus's. Every company I've worked for has took care of me I would say.  Don't get me wrong I look out for Dusty, thats just being rational that one would look out for ones own self.  However, trust me, if you work harder than the guy next to you, you will never ben unemployed.  At least not for very long....

 

[GONEWEST]

However, trust me, if you work harder than the guy next to you, you will never ben unemployed.  At least not for very long....



You're dreamin' buddy, but that's ok. This world is real, it's mean and it's not fair. Wait unti you get to be 55 or 60 and out of work and tell everyone you worked harder and longer. On the other hand I admire your work ethic and I'm glad you have it.

 

[farwest]

Any one on here who said a union protects a crappy employee is right, but so many strikes and their still gone, it just takes longer.  Without  a union it would be the first time.  As gonewest said, you would be surprised to know the number of 55 to 60 year old people ask if theirs any jobs in that union they could do to boost retirement.  Their Social Security from agriculture is crap they say.  Damn the union huh.  I walked by a guy servicing a large piece of equipment  a while back, i recognized him as a former promininent angus bull raiser in the area, he was pushing 60.  Only job he could get with those benefits at that age for him and his wife,  Damn the union.

 

[aj]

I have heard that there is a test in the world called "The gate test". You are supposed to observe the following...When the gates on the border are opened....do people rush in or do they rush out. I think if you don't like it here in the U.S. you should move to Africa or France or wherever....people are all treated the same there. There is also a thing called the real world(as opposed to a utopia). There are problems in the real world. Some problems are not solveable. I have heard one definition of the difference between Liberals and Conservatives. Conservatives realize all problems are not solveable. There are things that government will never solve. Liberals will try to solves all problems with government even if they destroy the government trying to do it(to form a utopia). I have a hard time understanding the "antiwar crowd". In my opinion there will also be someone in the world with a bigger stick,bomb,cause or whatever. Man will beat the hell out of each other till the end of time. The U.S. is basically on the high ground in every conflict it is in.But there will always be a Hitler, or a Hussien, or a terrorist raising hell somewhere. You can not be a pacifist and survive. If someone is raping your grandmother in front of you do you react or do you watch. This planet will always have good and evil people. I think the thing about the free market is that it will sort things out. We don't live in a pure capitalist system because we have things like welfare,farmer programs,food assistence.government loans, and whatnot. I guess my fear is that we kill the golden goose trying to make the United States a utopia. Blacks,Vietnameese, Irish people, almost everybody has been mistreated at one time or another. But African americans don't want to go back to Africa. Irish people don't want to go back to Ireland and whatnot. So many peoples grasp of history starts the day they were born and ends the day they die. The United States of America is basically an experiment...it hasn't been here forever. Ho long did the Roman empire last. How long will  or did the Soviet Union last. How long will the U.S.A. last in the history of the world? The U.S.A. will never be a utopia. If you don't like it just wait till the gates open and you can scamper out. jadrno(just a dumb rednecks opinion). ;D

 

[farwest]

as i've said before AJ, let me know how your mixing that stuff <party>

 

[j3cattleco]

Well GONEWEST, I have to admit, that you opened my eyes to something today.  I was operating under the presupposition, that business's actually care for their employees, and I was taking that for granted that the business actually wants what is best for their employees.  We have been in restaraunts for over 33 years and have more than 40 employees.  One thing we pride ourselves on is that our employees are our family.  Our Management averages over 17 years with our company and most of them this is their first and only job.  They make very good money with tons of benefits and a month off paid a year.  Due to being in the restaraunt field we have  a lot of part time employees as well so in your example about the people on the front lines, sales or direct laborers,  my managers are the ones on the front lines.  And yes we do have bonus programs all the way down the food chain.  With the greater understanding that business's don't actually care for their employees then I can understand the thought of protecting the work force to some degree.  I guess on a bigger level I think we should try to change the business model of exploiting workers. 

And I understand your concern for disposable income.  Econ is my thing and your absolutely right disposable income fuels any economy but, I never said I don't believe in paying anyone.  We pay above in every area of our market, we start people higher and pay management far more than anyone in our trading area, so pay is not the problem.  I'm not afraid to pay anyone as long as they provide the labor that is due that pay.  My key in efficiency.  Once again my business model is designed around one where you actually are trying to help due what's best for your employees and their families, and I now realize that's not how all real world business's run. 

 

[aj]

Farwest...its a family secret but here goes....Johnny Walker(black label) and Ogalahla aquifer(glacier produced) water. ;D

 

[farwest]

That sounds like a real nice business you have going and i commend you for treating your employees the way you do, unfortunately it is not like that often with labor and management(ownership).  Not all are cinderella stories. If you go out of business tomorrow what security do these employees have for their 17 years.

 

[farwest]

Farwest...its a family secret but here goes....Johnny Walker(black label) and Ogalahla aquifer(glacier produced) water. ;D

i'm right over the heart of that awqwafur, thanks for the recipe.