New Calf problem: Need some input

[common sense]

I have had a group of E.T. calves being born at another location. All of the calves are strong and healthy with the exception of two which happen to be litter mates. One had to be put down and the other is showing the same symptoms so I am sure the prognosis is not good. There have been three calves born out of this litter. The litter is both PHA and TH free by parentage. They are NOT clubby genetics; they are Maines. The calves were all born easily and with no apparent issues but shortly after birth (within 12 hours) the hind joints enlarge. They are not full of fluid but are quite hard. Within hours they can't stand on them. The vet ruled out navel infection since the symptoms are so rapid. They are running blood but it will take time and the calf that is still alive will probably have to be put down as it can't stand on its hind legs already.  They are strong and normal at birth. They get up and suck, run around and appear perfectly normal.  The cows have had all of their vaccinations, they have been on an incredible nutritional plane and have also been on an excellent mineral program. The initial blood test on the calf simply showed low glucose levels most likely due to the fact that it couldn't suck.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this. It's a new one to me.  Thanks.

Juli

 

[peachy]

Maybe a selenium deficiency.

 

[common sense]

Good thought but it doesn't involve the muscles, it only has involved the hind leg joints namely the hock joints. It is very rapid and the joint becomes enlarged within 24 hours after birth. Besides the joint swelling, the calf acts normal. Thanks for the input though.

 

[DL]

Juli - I don't know that you can rule out naval infection solely based on time, some of the more virulent bacteria do not follow the rules. It is however a very weird presentation -any other blood work? Did he tap the joint or is the assumption that there is no fluid because it is hard? Are the other joints (front legs) normal? Anything else on physical exam? Are these your recips or purchased?

My only advise would be to take the remaining calf to Ames for a full and complete necropsy - you will get more information if the calf is "fresh" - ie take it while it is alive to be put down there. You need to know what it is and to rule out any bacterial or viral pathogens - potential mineral and vitamin issues etc. Ask them specifically to dissect out the joints - I would also ask for an ear from both calves to save in the freezer - anything weird gets an ear in the freezer - keep us posted and good luck

 

[jbh]

Sounds like a strep infection to me......had something like it  years ago.....even landed in their shoulder, knees and rear joints.....

 

[common sense]

Juli - I don't know that you can rule out naval infection solely based on time, some of the more virulent bacteria do not follow the rules. It is however a very weird presentation -any other blood work? Did he tap the joint or is the assumption that there is no fluid because it is hard? Are the other joints (front legs) normal? Anything else on physical exam? Are these your recips or purchased?

My only advise would be to take the remaining calf to Ames for a full and complete necropsy - you will get more information if the calf is "fresh" - ie take it while it is alive to be put down there. You need to know what it is and to rule out any bacterial or viral pathogens - potential mineral and vitamin issues etc. Ask them specifically to dissect out the joints - I would also ask for an ear from both calves to save in the freezer - anything weird gets an ear in the freezer - keep us posted and good luck

I didn't want to rule out naval infection either but I have never seen it hit them so fast. I was told that they are spraying navals with iodine at birth and giving shots of antibiotic to help combat any infections...personally, I don't like to spray navels unless I am standing there the second they are born. In my experience, if the bacteria enter the naval and you cauterize it then you are defeating the purpose. I have had worse luck using iodine. But with that aside...this is only showing up in the hind joints. No other symptoms on physical exam. The attending vet took blood to send to send in. He also tested some for what he could test for in his office.  I don't believe he tapped the joint but that is a good thought. All of these recips are my own and have been on my farm before going to the other facility. They have been on a very good mineral program...probably too good. Is there any chance that these symptoms could be caused by too much of some certain mineral?  What are your thoughts on a strep infection?  I think that taking the calf to Ames would be the best course of action. I appreciate your help.

Juli

 

[linnettejane]

this is terrible!  i hope you are able to figure out what in the heck is going on!

not to change the subject, but could you elaborate more on the iodine/naval thing?  i always thought it was a good thing to put it on as soon as they were born...in fact, my vet told me to spray it around the outside and seperate the tissue and squirt it up into the naval....is this a bad idea? 

 

[DL]

Juli - this is one of those where you hear hoof beat you first think horse, but if it doesn't make sense it could be a zebra - the 2 most common causes of swollen joint in baby calves are infection and trauma - trauma seems unlikely in 2 babies of this age. Strep is certainly one of the infections that can cause joint infection.

Several things make it difficult to identify the bacteria involved in infections - one after death some non important bacteria may grow making it difficult to sort out and the second is previous treatment - do you know what they treated them with? dose and route? anything else given? When you take the calf to Ames make sure you tell them what antibiotic they were given - there are ways to enhance to growth of bacteria (in culture)  that may have been suppressed by antibiotics

I think you will get the most useful information from Ames - then if there are other issues you will know what you are up against and can have a plan of attack - sorry about the babies - I hate losing calves

 

[DL]

this is terrible!  i hope you are able to figure out what in the heck is going on!

not to change the subject, but could you elaborate more on the iodine/naval thing?  i always thought it was a good thing to put it on as soon as they were born...in fact, my vet told me to spray it around the outside and seperate the tissue and squirt it up into the naval....is this a bad idea? 

LJ - this is one of those things where every vet has different ideas and when 7% iodine became a controlled substance and required record keeping it became more difficult to get  - I think the weak iodine is pretty useless and I am not fond of spraying - I think the entire naval should be dipped and sloshed a couple of times with 7% iodine - I think probably the spray and squirt your vet recommended is similar to the dipped and sloshed - you should be good and if it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[Cowboy]

Juli -- this may not make you feel any better about those two calves, but many years ago while I was in Colo, the big push was to always dip the navels -- especially while calving in a pen system.

That year -- out of 32 calves born -- I Missed 10 due to being on the road. Those were the ONLY 10 that did NOT get navel ill. The next year I tested that premise, and purposefully skipped every other one. Not a single calf got navel ill that went untreated with Iodine, and ALL but 4 got it after being treated at birth.

In the last 18 years, I have refused to dip or spray Iodine in any form on new borns. I have had one calf get navel ill at 12 days old in that time -- that is very convincing.

The navel can actually get burnt from the treatment designed to prevent infection, and then be an open wound for longer than normal. I will catch flack from this post I am sure, but that is a true experience on several hundred calves over many years.

The fact that your's got bad in the hind legs first tells me that it went to the joints closest to the infection instead of taking more time to go systemic. Most of the systemicly infected calves will show swollen knees first -- but seem to be easily treated with a week or so of Penn.

Not trying to step on DL's foot here at all -- just my observation -- I tend to be pretty observant!

Good luck inthe snow banks --

Terry

 

[jallen]

See we now dip or spray all of are calves at birth because we had a  E.T. calf get it shortly after born and it was never able to walk right after and since then we have not had any problems.
Sorry about the calves but you have gotten some good help from here and I would try and get it to Ames asap if possible sorry again.

 

[DL]

I think the science will show that if you are calving in a clean environment dipping navels can decrease the risk of infection - if you are calving in a dirty environment you set yourself up for infection - I dip and slosh and have never had a navel infection - clean environment is the key, iodine is extra insurance

 

[Show Heifer]

DL, since some has had a bad experience dipping/sloshing navels, could it be "bad technique"... meaning, could the dip or spray be contaminated therefore spreading the germs from calf to calf?  Or could it be way it is handled?
Personally, I get all the insurance I can. Heck, even been accused of being an animal worshipper due to the fact I vaccinate my baby calves, bed them down, AND look them up routinely. Good grief, what is the world coming to??  :

Just wondering....

 

[common sense]

Today's status: The front knees are enlarged. WBC count is normal, in fact at the top end of normal.  DL Wouldn't that rule out any naval infection?  Ugh, this is frustrating. I really don't want to sacrifice a calf if I don't have to. 

 

[jbw]

Julie,
  It's a new mutation, kneemonia. ;D

 

 

[Part Timer]

Maybe its a calcium deficiency. We had something similar to that last year. Gave them a shot and all was good in a few days.

 

[DL]

Today's status: The front knees are enlarged. WBC count is normal, in fact at the top end of normal.  DL Wouldn't that rule out any naval infection?  Ugh, this is frustrating. I really don't want to sacrifice a calf if I don't have to. 

Have them tap the joint for gram stain, aerobic and anaerobic bacteria - it might be best if you took it to Ames (the live part of the clinic) and have them do the taps - they may have more experience, the lab will be right there, and based on gram stain they could start treatment


IMHO having the front knees enlarged only increases the chances that this calf has a disseminated infection, most likely from the naval - baby calves with infections rarely show blood values comparable to the extent of their disease so a normal WBC does not rule out naval infection or septic arthritis -

my best advise - get the calf to Ames for treatment (hopefully) necropsy if necessary - time could be considered of the essence -

 

[kanshow]

I don't have any advice or answers just wanted to give a little support.    This has been a year for odd things to happen in our calving scenario.  too.

 

[Shady Lane]

Sounds like pretty clasic joint ill to me. I have seen similar instances before.

  I dont dip navels anymore either as I have not found that to be an effective prevention of infection. Furthermore, many producers often use the same bottle of iodine tincture that they "dip" with, dirty navels into the same bottle over and over must lead to contamination in my mind.

Clean pens, lots of bedding and disinfecting your calving facillities seem to be the best prevention.

A local vet told me once that a broad spectrum antibiotic given at birth during times of chronic infections was the best idea.

He reccomended 5cc of Nuflor.

Just my experience, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[kfacres]

we don't dip navels either...  never have not in a long time...