new shorty herd sire opinions welcome

[renegadelivestock]

born jan 19 2013
  WHR SONNY 8114 X-[CAN]AR10749- 
    WHRRT AUGUSTASUNRISE 2107 X-[USA]*4069170-   
        SS AUGUSTA PRIDE 3127 X-[USA]*3920500- 
  HD SWAGGER 802 X-[CAN]*17882-     
        JG RED CLOUD X-[USA]3947054- 
      HD REFLECTION 021 X-[USA]*4049164-   
        NPS DESERT ROSE 004 -[USA]*4021066- 
R K WHITE LIAR 119A       
        CF TRUMP X X-[US]*3909231- 
      HD BLOODSTONE 603 X-[USA]*4069163-   
        NPS DESERT ROSE 004 -[USA]*4021066- 
  GCC AUGUSTA PRIDE BS 24 X-[CAN]AR19003-     
        WHR SONNY 8114 X-[CAN]AR10749- 
    SS AUGUSTA PRIDE 243 -[USA]*4053420-   
      SS AUGUSTA PRIDE 3127 X-[USA]*3920500- 

 

[ctroidl]

The bull definately has some eye appeal to him, in my opinion he looks fairly feminine and that will boat well for you when producing show heifers. I don't think he carries enough power to produce steers or future bull prospects. Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree, and with all that trump in his pedigree I would be worried of how maternal his daughters will be.

 

[RyanChandler]

Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree,

Your assessment of the bull is spot on but this right here is  craziness to me.  Please elaborate on your position.

 

[caledon101]

He looks very good!
What is being overlooked here is the fact this calf is in Canada. Unlike the shorthorn scene in the USA, the majority of Canadian pedigrees are Trump free. Also, 3127 is a hugely coveted and popular cow family in the USA but is very rare in Canada.
This calf will be an outcross sire in Canada and, I predict will work extremely well on the non-appendix genetic base that in some cases could certainly use more style and moderation in frame.

 

[oakview]

Very stylish, as you would expect with his background.  Somewhat related question regarding the Augusta Prides.  3127 descendants are very popular here.  For those of you that actually let cows raise their own calves, this disqualifies ET calves, do your Augusta Pride 3127 line females milk well?  My experience has been that the GR Combo cattle aren't the best calf raisers.  (3127 would be a granddaughter of Combo, sired by Warrior)  Of course the other side of the equation would be an equal contributor to the milking ability.  Any experiences?

 

[caledon101]

All I can contribute is to say I owned the Dam of that white bull calf and she was an excellent milker with ideal maternal instincts. 
We had a Warrior cow a number of years ago; a big powerful female that also milked very well. I realize these are only small samples to make any worthwhile conclusions from but, it was the experience we realized.
We never had much luck with MSF Equity daughters milking but I'm sure other breeders would have a very different story to tell.

 

[knabe]

Interesting that the owners of trump list her as a donor as does another herd, and both of them have fullblood maine influence cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

Very stylish, as you would expect with his background.  Somewhat related question regarding the Augusta Prides.  3127 descendants are very popular here.  For those of you that actually let cows raise their own calves, this disqualifies ET calves, do your Augusta Pride 3127 line females milk well?  My experience has been that the GR Combo cattle aren't the best calf raisers.  (3127 would be a granddaughter of Combo, sired by Warrior)  Of course the other side of the equation would be an equal contributor to the milking ability.  Any experiences?

That disqualifies this phenotype-

 

[oakview]

The cow pictured appears to be raising a calf.  How do you want your in production cows to look?  My point in asking about the producing ability of 3127 offspring is to learn how well her daughters and granddaughters produce calves that weren't ET calves raised by another cow.  I don't care if a descendant weaned at 750 pounds if it was raised by a recip.  I would like to find out if they actually weaned their own calves at above, below, or average herd levels. 

I had also heard the Equity females weren't the best milkers.  I have had a few Equity's Charmer daughters that were about average, I would say. 

Nothing wrong with a little Maine in there.  I actually kind of like it.

 

[ctroidl]

Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree,

Your assessment of the bull is spot on but this right here is  craziness to me.  Please elaborate on your position.

The bull goes back to Trump and Augusta pride 3127 on the sires and the dams side of the pedigree more than once. When the gametes unite during fertilization and chromosomes cross over, genetic information is supposed to be exchanged in order to produce variety in the offspring. When genetics of the same organism are crossed, the resulting offspring may inherit recessive mutation allels; some may be fatal, but most result in a weeker offspring.
          Elevated incidence of recessive genetic diseases

            Reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability

            Increased congenital defects such as cryptorchidism, heart defects, cleft palates.

            Fluctuating assymetry (such as crooked faces, or uneven eye placement and size).

            Lower birthweight

            Higher neonatal mortality

            Slower growth rate

            Smaller adult size, and

            Loss of immune system function.

 

[RyanChandler]

Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree,

Your assessment of the bull is spot on but this right here is  craziness to me.  Please elaborate on your position.

The bull goes back to Trump and Augusta pride 3127 on the sires and the dams side of the pedigree more than once. When the gametes unite during fertilization and chromosomes cross over, genetic information is supposed to be exchanged in order to produce variety in the offspring. When genetics of the same organism are crossed, the resulting offspring may inherit recessive mutation allels; some may be fatal, but most result in a weeker offspring.
          Elevated incidence of recessive genetic diseases

            Reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability

            Increased congenital defects such as cryptorchidism, heart defects, cleft palates.

            Fluctuating assymetry (such as crooked faces, or uneven eye placement and size).

            Lower birthweight

            Higher neonatal mortality

            Slower growth rate

            Smaller adult size, and

            Loss of immune system function.

I take it you're not familiar w/ selective linebreeding to perpetuate desired qualities and characteristics???  Homozygosity and prepotency are the goals; variety is a bad thing.  If you're into show cattle, the best thing this bull calf has going for him is his stabilized, which suggests predictable, genetics. 

 

[caledon101]

cltroidl....I won't argue with scientific facts but I must admit to wondering why the Hereford breed isn't extinct today based on the genetic nightmare consequences you have outlined. They've been linebreeding forever.

 

[ctroidl]

I couldn't agree more that in establishing a good herd, consistency and predictable outcome is the goal of any breeder. I just believe it can be done by breeding animals of similar phenotype and "monitoring genotype" ( ex. breeding homozygous polled bull so resulting offspring are all polled). My only concern when compounding similar genetics from the same ancestor into one offspring is there will be negative reprocutions from genetic confusion. If you as a breeder know how to monitor that and know what the result will be, all power to ya. Know doubt their will be a higher chance that the offspring will carry the characteristics that made trump so popular.

In response to caledon 101, no doubt viable offspring can be produced when linebreeding or inbreding, theres lots of calves I have seen from the various cattle blogs and at shows that are linebred, (ex. sire: monopoly Dam: Heatwave). I just think your somewhat playing with fire when the same genetics are intertwined into one package. Like I said there is a chance of negative consequences depending on what genetics are dominant over the other.

 

[knabe]

there is NO doubt that with line breeding, the culling rate is MUCH higher early on.

once a type is established, the LOWER the culling rate. 

pretty much no one does this anymore that i know of other than about 10 people, three of which are doing this with older angus genetics and have been doing it since the early 60's.

personally, there are two shorthorn bulls that need to be line bred, one of which is major's leroy, and the other one that isn't posted on grants website anymore, but he's the deeper longer bull that he said he crossed good with. as far as cows go, one would be the cow he got from some unknown breeder.  i really don't care about size anymore with respect to seed stock as size seems to be easily changed.  i care more about type and balance than size.  yes, i realize if you change the size, balance may suffer, but it is much easier to deal with with a fixed phenotype than one who is all mixed up and happens to be the "right" size.

 

[RyanChandler]

I like that line of thought, Knabe ==>Fix type and then address size.  Good stuff.

 

[aj]

I would agree with knabe on culling rates of early linebreeding matings. I have done some brother times a full brother's daughter matings and tfor sure there are some throw away calves.....some inconsistency in pheno types.....some are good solid calves though.

 

[Doc]

I have never had any problems with 3127,5127 or 6127 offspring milking. I have had dtrs or granddaughters of all 3.
Oakview it's funny you should mention Warrior. Last year I bought 3 dtrs of Bollums' Elsie Jade cow . They were sired by Bloodstone, Phoenix and Stampede. Because how well they did with their 1st calf , this year I purchased another dtr of her and this one is sired by Warrior. It will be interesting to see how she stacks up to her sisters .

 

[ctroidl]

In my opinion the fact that most of the highly regarded breeders in the club calf industry and the show side of the shorthorn industry remain satisfied with recycling the same genetics, is why there is no sustainability in either indusrty. Until these show breeders reroute the goal of there operations to produce a variety of genetics centered around a specific phenotype neither industry will make much improvement. I may only be seventeen years old in a business which presents endless learning, but neither linebreeding or inbreeding seem justified and thats why I will never participate in it.

 

[justintime]

I have never considered the 3127 line to be poor milking females. I saw 3127, a couple times,  about the time the picture that is posted on here was taken, and both times she had good calves at her side. I have had 3 or 4 granddaughters of 3127 over the years, and all milked very well. I have a granddaughter here now that came from Sullivans, and she has risen to become one of my best producing females. She milks well, and has two daughters now in production and they are both excellent milkers as well .

I will agree with what was said about Equity females, some of which were not great milking females. My experience is that an Equity daughter from a good milking dam, was also a pretty good milking female. An Equity daughter from a poorer milking dam was probably not going to set the world on fire in the milking department.  I have seen some real good producing Equity daughters over the years. I have also seen a few that basically keep their calf company through the summer.

In regards to Warrior, I never had many Warrior daughters but they ones I had were good mothers that worked well. I also had a maternal brother to Warrior as a herd sire and his daughters were excellent cows. He was CCS World Connection, and I am planning to go use him again in our herd.
Doc... in regards to the Elsie's Jade females you have from Bollums. The original Elsie's jade cow is still here and is now 14 years old and looks like she may be a 6 year old. She is not a real heavy milking female but has enough to bring in a good calf and she is always in excellent condition. Our Elsie Jade female has produced over $70,000 in progeny and embryos so she will probably die on the farm. We are also using a son of hers, that I pictured in a previous thread "one of our junior herd sires". Hopefully your Jade females will work as well for you as ours has!

 

[knabe]

neither linebreeding or inbreeding seem justified and thats why I will never participate in it.

Things aren't always as they seem. Please elaborate on your concepts.