Opinion on defect carriers

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sjcattleco

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I have all but quit hitting the showsteers board... it is getting too much like breeders world... I hate to say... There is a post aobut people should be ashamed of themselves for picking on people talking about TH and PHA... My post was something to the affect of  .... If everyone would slaughter carriers and or just stop using them all together this dicussion would go away and we could go on to a more constructive topic... Boy  did I get hammered for that one!!  What is the mindset of these people that just advocate using the bull and test any potential breeders??? Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?  do these people have soo much disposable income wrapped up in their hobby that they do not want to give it up and don't care about the bigger picture?  The thought of actually buying semen or a known carrier bull to use for breeding purpose is just totally foreign to my way of thinking.... Shoot I won't hardly even breed to a shorthorn bull that carries an asterisk.....Anyway I just wonder what is going through these people's head??
 

red

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lol- so that was you! Oh my, you did get hammered!
Well, I think that if you have a carrier & you are up front and honest about it- you should be able to sell semen or eggs. I know that's not what everyone likes to hear but there are people that aren't afraid of buying a carrier.
I think that it's an individuals choice on what they want to use. That being said- I sure hope they are honest & test any offspring.
I have carriers in my herd. Hate that I do- but I'm going to bred them to clean bulls & be selective about what how I market their offspring. I've used carrier bulls in the past. Don't think I will anymore, there are just too many good clean bulls out there.
Interesting topic Scott- let's all keep up the good work here. Let's have some good discussions, no nasty comments, let people express their thoughts! I know you guys can show people how to have meaningful discussions!! (welcome)

Red
 

Gypsy

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I put the following comments under another topic (have you ever had a PHA/TH calf....) but I thought I would post them here too!  To me tolerance of other peoples opinions is easy and okay as long as everyone is honest.  I get very intolerant if folks aren't honest and forthright.



You know on another message board Red this question would have gotten you a "BIG SHAME ON YOU" comment.  I am so glad that people on this board can comment about their experiences and opinions without the thought police saying snotty things about us.  I know that there are many different thoughts on this subject and many different ways to handle it.  I am just glad to be able to relate my experience with it because I know that if I had known about PHA 5 years ago I might be able to say that I was lucky in the bloodlines I chose to use.  Instead, because the problem was ignored and covered up for so long by several breeders I am having to deal with this problem when I really don't want to.  If these same breeders had not covered up the problem and let people make the choice to use the bull or not I think that would have been a LOT more ethical!  If the bull is so great he would have been used anyway, right?  Thanks for having this forum for people to express opinions and share experiences and knowledge without being told "shame on you".
 

Jill

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I dont think we should be "hammering" anyone, I don't have a problem with your choice of not to use a carrier bull, but the comment "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" makes me just a mad.  For some of us, winning a stupid steer show IS our business and my choice of bull does not make me stupid, it makes me money.  I am honest and plan to stay that way, but please stop calling me stupid. 
 

ELBEE

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I still maintain the problem lies with the popular phenotype trend precluding the TH and PHA defect. As time passes the judging community will steer away from this phenotype and eventually displace this "look" because of it's association with the defects. Therefore eliminating the defect through supply and demand.
 

bluegrass

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Bagdad, Kentucky.
I must agree with Jill about that "stupid steer show " comment. I am not hammering anyone for their breeeding decisions I believe that you should breed the kind of cattle that you have a market for. I go with the customer is always right theory. If your customers want to win steer shows, you better be breeding steers that can win, or your customers will go elsewhere. Steer buyers want a winner and could care less if he is sired by a th or pha carrier or even if hes half alpacca.
 

knabe

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god gave us a mouth so we can't hear what each other is thinking.  the light between thinking, saying and hearing is not bright enough.  some could use improvement in their verbal/written skills, myself included, others look for personal offense in every statement, myself included.  everyone merits some translation

try this out

i don't like so and so bull.  this doesn't mean i actually dislike the bull, it means i dont "like" him.  a big difference.  but someone who overheard the conversation would tell someone else that so and so hates that bull.

my translation of  "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" is, i won't use carrier genetics, though other people will to meet their goals, and i take the emotion out of it.

here's a link i have no hope of living up to

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/manners/rules2.cfm
 

red

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Great! Now this is what I'm talking about! Getting some ideas & thoughts out there!

We're all in it for different reasons. Raise different styles of cattle & in different situations.
What works for Gary bob doesn't translate right in Ohio. (not picking on you GaryBob) but it all boils down to what you want in your herd.
Don't believe anything you do for a living or even for the enjoyment is stupid. OK, maybe raising mini holsteins is crossing the line! Honesty is going to be the key word here!

Red
 

justme

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Let's just agree to disagree and not make this board like some other boards that are litterally dying from all the controversy.  To each there own, I know my theories and my practices.
 

DL

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I have said this before and I will say it again, and yes I am used to having a target on my back, but ya know what I wear my Sabres hat proudly in Dead Wing country and I wear my farm jacket proudly wherever  I go.

TH and PHA in my mind are first and foremost a medical, genetic and yes cattle/calf welfare issue. Since I am in the business of stamping out disease I believe that they should be dealt with in an aggressive manner. Since cattle/calf welfare is high on my list I believe they should be dealt with in an aggressive manner. I will NEVER use a carrier bull again, period. I have one carrier (PHA) heifer - put an egg in her Sunday - she will NEVER be bred to a bull, period. She will carry an egg or she will be served on a plate. In my mind for my program and what I want in my cows this is a no brainer - I DO NO WANT TO DEAL WITH TH OR PHA ON MY FARM -  EVER.

IMHO using a carrier bull as a herd bull is a bad idea - in fact the easiest and quickest way to eliminate carriers of genetic defects is to not use carrier bulls. I personally could not sleep at night if I sold a carrier animal - every day it becomes apparent that people don't know, they don't really get it, they don't understand the potential ramifications. I do not want to be the person that sold the kid the carrier heifer that had the PHA calf or the person that sold the carrier bull to the commercial guy who had chi-angus- shortie cows and ended up with you guessed it.

Yes I think in theory these defects can be managed - and if you have a host of carrier females your choice is manage or go bankrupt - but management depends on honesty, accuracy, and testing and while some people will do it honestly, openly and will test, many won't - saying something like well I am only breeding for steers - so what do you do with the females - of we won't keep them we'll sell 'em (GREAT, to who?) isn't management - it is deception

Yes there is the caveat "buyer beware" but one PHA calf could be enought to turn a commercial or any breeder off from a breed for life.  People are not rational - Maines have just made progress in the birth weight area - selling PHA carrier bulls is going to put a black spot on the breed - many people are like elephants they don't forget and they may place blame illogically.

I know a lot of people enjoy cattle shows, family activities, hard work, good kids, good for the breed (is it?) etc but I think steer shows are silly - I think Miss America is silly too - superficial fluff - everyone looking for the great one - I thinking breeding for show steers is a good way to ruin your cow herd - many of the females from those matings are useless

I know many people who make their cattle money from steers - some of them are good friends of mine - I know they are honest and they are basing their decisions on their marketing plan. My marketing plan is different. Jill I don't think he called you stupid - he called the steer show stupid - I call it silly - but if it works for you and you can sleep at night and you are honest more power to you. It ain't my choice, but then my marketing plan and goals are not the same as yours.

Everyone of us has different goals and plans for our herds and our lives - and that is really how it should be - imagine a billion little Telos' or DL's or Reds or Jills or NYers or Lawdawgs or Gypsys or Deep or DLD  or chamberos or sru or sjcc or any of the rest of us - life would be pretty boring . My problem lies with the omission of known data, preying on the unsuspecting, and the slime

like I said on a different post (politics I think) I have always been on the far left .....beautiful day here - hope everyone gets a titch of sun! DL

 

red

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Thanks Red - it is a good likeness of me - now if you could add the broom!! (electric broom, I am thoroughly modern!!)
 

DL

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knabe said:
god gave us a mouth so we can't hear what each other is thinking.  the light between thinking, saying and hearing is not bright enough.  some could use improvement in their verbal/written skills, myself included, others look for personal offense in every statement, myself included.  everyone merits some translation

try this out

i don't like so and so bull.  this doesn't mean i actually dislike the bull, it means i dont "like" him.  a big difference.  but someone who overheard the conversation would tell someone else that so and so hates that bull.

my translation of  "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" is, i won't use carrier genetics, though other people will to meet their goals, and i take the emotion out of it.

here's a link i have no hope of living up to

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/manners/rules2.cfm

knabe - you are a bit of a Rennisance dude aren't you!? Good translation - I think we are all a bit "testy" or gun shy or something over previous past experiences on these apparently contentious issues! I don't think we have to agree, I don't think we have to get along, I don't even think we have to like each other (although you know I think you are swell :D and actually I have enjoyed everyones posts here on the planet - thoughtful, fun,  a touch of whimsey and old bull or two - a few really young guys like sru and then us mature types!)
[size=10pt]
I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO BE DECENT HUMAN BEINGS AND TREAT EACH OTHER WITH RESPECT AND MAYBE CUT EACH OHTER A LITTLE SLACK
[/size]

and frankly or is it earnestly if I am told one more time something like OK kids can't we all get along - I will throw up!

(IMHO it ain't about "getting along it is about respect and kindness)

now if you could just replace the dead thing on the fence with something more appetizing you would be my hero for April! I gotta believe you are better looking than that!!  Maybe CB_3 would send you a Beefpaca picture:) :)
red said:
 

red

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There you go! Our next contest- finding a new profile picture for Knabe!

Red
 

sjcattleco

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Jill said:
I dont think we should be "hammering" anyone, I don't have a problem with your choice of not to use a carrier bull, but the comment "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" makes me just a mad.  For some of us, winning a stupid steer show IS our business and my choice of bull does not make me stupid, it makes me money.  I am honest and plan to stay that way, but please stop calling me stupid. 

I did not call anyone stupid... I said that people were soo desperate to win a stupid steer show!!!!  Facts are people put so much importance on  a project that  has not real end result... other than 750# of red meat!  Go to any county fair that has a carcass contest and the carcass winner gets less press than the live winner ...that really makes no sense....I have raised several class winners... and we have had 2 Co fair Grands and 2-3 reserves.... not many can boast that and we have NEVER bred a cow and said BOY I hope she has a steer.....And I hate all the back stabbing and bad mouthing that goes on in the steer barn... its always the 1 head wonders that paid too much from some steer jock or clubby sale  and could not find a good one out in the pasture even if it had a $100 bill tied to its tail!!! IMO the highest paid most prestigious class in any show should be the Bred born and raised heifer show... The kid that wins that should be the one who everyone looks up to.....Not the kid whos grandpa payed $3500 for the calf wins Grand sells the steer in the sale and ends up still loosing $500....  I guess its just a matter of priorities.... I want want my kids to idolize guys like Lee Bigham or Ron Bolze, or Henry Bergfeld or Gary Ericsson.... And at a young age appreciate what these people are like and try to be more like them than not!
 

red

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Good thoughts all around. Guess I'd like more opinions on carriers/breeding. We'll never all agree on the club calf business & not sure I want to!

Red (welcome)
 

knabe

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ok i'll bite.  as a confirmed hypocrite, i would like to know who purchased the paramount son at gibson's sale and if he's collected him yet?  i think, and i'm not a real breeder, but it's individuals like paramount, that if the animal has merit, he should not be a dead ender.  if the trait is linked to positive traits, well then, there is a bigger problem.  Perhaps a bull like paramount throws higher butterfat, giving more growth on grass or something else like a different carcass quality trait not yet found, i would use him and test accordingly.  the problem is in diversity and where that stinking gene is in how much of the chromosome has to not be used because of where crossovers occur etc.  now that the cow genome has a rough map, not really "finished", it would be neat to see an analysis of what's up/down there.
 

deep

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We've got a carrier bull  :mad: We raised him, showed him and did well  ;D    (pha carrier)
We're using him selectively for breeding.  We've got some other things going with clean bulls as well  ;D
We're not in the club calf business. 
We don't raise cattle as a hobby.
We take very seriously our small part in the cattle business.
I have yet to become angry at anyone who does not agree with our views on carrier cattle.
Each breeder has their own agenda and that is exactly how it should be.
Honesty is the best policy, regardless of what type of business it is.  We all should've learned that a long time ago.


(dog)
 

red

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Thanks Deep for some really good comments. I believe that you & your brother & the other owners will do what's right concerning Jameson!!!

(welcome)

Thanks,
Red
 

Jill

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sjcattleco said:
Jill said:
I dont think we should be "hammering" anyone, I don't have a problem with your choice of not to use a carrier bull, but the comment "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" makes me just a mad.  For some of us, winning a stupid steer show IS our business and my choice of bull does not make me stupid, it makes me money.  I am honest and plan to stay that way, but please stop calling me stupid. 

I did not call anyone stupid... I said that people were soo desperate to win a stupid steer show!!!!  Facts are people put so much importance on  a project that  has not real end result... other than 750# of red meat!  Go to any county fair that has a carcass contest and the carcass winner gets less press than the live winner ...that really makes no sense....I have raised several class winners... and we have had 2 Co fair Grands and 2-3 reserves.... not many can boast that and we have NEVER bred a cow and said BOY I hope she has a steer.....And I hate all the back stabbing and bad mouthing that goes on in the steer barn... its always the 1 head wonders that paid too much from some steer jock or clubby sale  and could not find a good one out in the pasture even if it had a $100 bill tied to its tail!!! IMO the highest paid most prestigious class in any show should be the Bred born and raised heifer show... The kid that wins that should be the one who everyone looks up to.....Not the kid whos grandpa payed $3500 for the calf wins Grand sells the steer in the sale and ends up still loosing $500....  I guess its just a matter of priorities.... I want want my kids to idolize guys like Lee Bigham or Ron Bolze, or Henry Bergfeld or Gary Ericsson.... And at a young age appreciate what these people are like and try to be more like them than not!

Now see, if you had just said that I would of agreed with you 100%, that is way different than your original post.  Thank You
 

DL

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Jill said:
sjcattleco said:
Jill said:
I don't think we should be "hammering" anyone, I don't have a problem with your choice of not to use a carrier bull, but the comment "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" makes me just a mad.  For some of us, winning a stupid steer show IS our business and my choice of bull does not make me stupid, it makes me money.  I am honest and plan to stay that way, but please stop calling me stupid. 

I did not call anyone stupid... I said that people were soo desperate to win a stupid steer show!!!!  Facts are people put so much importance on  a project that  has not real end result... other than 750# of red meat!  Go to any county fair that has a carcass contest and the carcass winner gets less press than the live winner ...that really makes no sense....I have raised several class winners... and we have had 2 Co fair Grands and 2-3 reserves.... not many can boast that and we have NEVER bred a cow and said BOY I hope she has a steer.....And I hate all the back stabbing and bad mouthing that goes on in the steer barn... its always the 1 head wonders that paid too much from some steer jock or clubby sale  and could not find a good one out in the pasture even if it had a $100 bill tied to its tail!!! IMO the highest paid most prestigious class in any show should be the Bred born and raised heifer show... The kid that wins that should be the one who everyone looks up to.....Not the kid whos grandpa payed $3500 for the calf wins Grand sells the steer in the sale and ends up still loosing $500....  I guess its just a matter of priorities.... I want want my kids to idolize guys like Lee Bigham or Ron Bolze, or Henry Bergfeld or Gary Ericsson.... And at a young age appreciate what these people are like and try to be more like them than not!

Now see, if you had just said that I would of agreed with you 100%, that is way different than your original post.  Thank You

It is all a matter of interpretation and since we can't see faces or hear tone we interpret things how they have appeared in our lives before - I read sj's comments just like he rephrased them to you - I never heard him call anyone stupid or hammer anyone - I believe we need to step back from our sensitivities - calling an event stupid or silly or foolish does not equate with calling people stupid or silly or foolish. I think the Miss America pageant is shear idiocy - although some of the contestants are bright, well educated and civic minded. It ain't my thing - but more power to those who want to do it!

Jill - did you show the reserve heifer in Iowa in 87? (if I have aged you unfairly please forgive me!! ;D DL
 
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