Pasture pic of A&T Renegade, CF Star Bucks, etc.

[JTM]

Here is a recent pic of A&T Renegade 124 who sired over a dozen calves out of first calf heifers for us this year all unassisted. Purebred Shorthorn. Also, a picture of CF Star Bucks in the pasture. We have some awesome heifers and steers out of him this year that will be offered in our Unlimited Potential sale on October 12th. Then a picture of an A&T Cattle Co. bull calf that is at our farm along with 33 cows and calves. Those genetics will also be featured in our sale.

 

[Duncraggan]

Conditions at your place look to be excellent!

Bulls look good, like the length on Starbucks.  Both seem to be nice, slick coated animals.

I am a bit concerned about the black noses on the calves in the third picture though, cattle with that feature are automatically rejected on inspection here.  Nice calves all the same though.

 

[knabe]

is the black nose a birthmark or some other pigment from a line rather than some other breed?

 

[Okotoks]

is the black nose a birthmark or some other pigment from a line rather than some other breed?

There have been black and dark noses in the breed from the start. They have never been popular and almost always frowned upon. The Canadian rules used to state a black mark bigger than the palm of the hand was a disqualifier for registration, that was pre appendix or Irish. There was a bull from the research station herd, Indian Head Captain that was definitely pure breeding that had a black nose. He was used because in the late 60's early 70's he was a bigger bull and everyone was looking for some size. If you look at the first animals in the Coates herd book there were some named Grey Cow, Yellow Cow and many color patterns. In the late 1800's the red and whites and extremely light roans were very common. Whites were popular in the early 1900's and when the Scotch breeding became popular solid reds became the preferred colour. I personally don't like the look of black noses.

 

[Duncraggan]

As far as I am aware, we may not have any black, including noses!  I have a few cattle with black streaks in their hooves that passed though!

 

[JTM]

is the black nose a birthmark or some other pigment from a line rather than some other breed?

There have been black and dark noses in the breed from the start. They have never been popular and almost always frowned upon. The Canadian rules used to state a black mark bigger than the palm of the hand was a disqualifier for registration, that was pre appendix or Irish. There was a bull from the research station herd, Indian Head Captain that was definitely pure breeding that had a black nose. He was used because in the late 60's early 70's he was a bigger bull and everyone was looking for some size. If you look at the first animals in the Coates herd book there were some named Grey Cow, Yellow Cow and many color patterns. In the late 1800's the red and whites and extremely light roans were very common. Whites were popular in the early 1900's and when the Scotch breeding became popular solid reds became the preferred colour. I personally don't like the look of black noses.

Okotoks is correct. This calf is about as pure as it gets. Asterisk free bull calf. I don't have one bit of a problem with it. There is genetic evidence of different types of red hair genes and one that can have charcoal noses while never having black hair anywhere in their searchable pedigree. Among a lot of asterisk free Shorthorn breeders it is an accepted norm to have charcoal noses from what I am gathering. One thing is for sure, this calf can do a lot of good for the Shorthorn breed.

 

[RyanChandler]

One second you're screaming breed character and identity, the next you're trying to normalize a black nose on a shorthorn.  I just don't get it. 

 

[JTM]

One second you're screaming breed character and identity, the next you're trying to normalize a black nose on a shorthorn.  I just don't get it.

LOL, and you have remained pretty consistent at trying to undermine my program and blowing smoke... I try to stay pretty open minded about these things and don't rush to judgment on the breeders. Maybe you could call up Saskvalley, Eionmor, and A&T Cattle Co. and personally ask them if they poisoned the genetic pool of asterisk free Shorthorn cattle? Oh wait, you have basically already achieved that...

 

[RyanChandler]

Your own Assoc finds it questionable.  How does that make me undermining your program?  To me, it's a breed character issue, not so much a purity issue.

 

[JTM]

Your own Assoc finds it questionable.  How does that make me undermining your program?  To me, it's a breed character issue, not so much a purity issue.

You have antagonized me from the moment I bought Complete. Not sure why but it's been pretty consistent. I think there are a lot of breed character issues right now in the breed that we would be a lot better off to address than this one. If purity is not in question, why are we questioning a dark nose when we should be questioning fertility, udder structure, hoof problems, calving ease, TH and PHA, birthweight, mature weight, and pelvic measurements just to name a few issues we have with character...

 

[J2F]

I can't wait for some Startbuck calves to hit the ground on my farm. He is looking great. I hope I can make it to your pasture sell this year and see him in person.

 

[RyanChandler]

I love Complete. I've been very consistent with my opinion regarding his phenotype.  I just feel he deserves to be in a breeding up program and not used over crossbred cows.  You paid for him, use him how you feel but when you promote a philosophy to newbies that all the legends -Leonhardt, Lent, Keeney, Lasater- oppose, I'm gonna be the first one there asking questions.


All those issues need to be addressed, I agree.

 

[oakview]

Black noses have been reasonably common for at least as long as we've had Shorthorns.  That's been 49 years and I'll bet they were common for many, many years before that.  We had a cow sired by Kair Red Gauntlet, this is a 60's vintage bull of Scottish origin, that threw a black nosed calf or two.  One of the most popular show heifers of her day was Oak Hill Pearl 75th.  She won Kansas City or Denver in the 70's, maybe both, and was a pure white heifer with a black nose.  Pearl was sired by Clark, a 100% native dual purpose, double registered bull, and was out of a cow of dual purpose origin.  No "outside" blood in these cattle, black noses just happen occasionally.  They still do.  If you don't like them, you don't have to use them.  As far as hair coat, I remember a Scottish bull in the 60's named Calrossie Randolph that was an outstanding bull, but fell into disfavor with some because his coat was so dark, it appeared black. 

 

[justintime]

Black noses are not as common today as in decades past because breeders have tried to eridicate them. I have seen cases where the black pigment also appears around the eyes and vulvas of females... and these animals are supposedly 100% pure. I can remember many Scottish animals that carried the black noses. Glamis Benefactor won every show he was shown at in Britain, before coming to the US to KC Shorthorn Farms, Kansas City. I remember at the time, breeders said that Benefactor was so powerful in every other area, that they had to overlook the black nose he had. I also remember a bull named Drynie Argosy who was not only black nosed  but also Red and White in color. Both these traits were discriminated at the time, but Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, Alberta purchased him anyways because he was the best bull they could find at the time to use in their herd. Lots of black noses came with the introduction of Irish genetics into North America. There were several different Irish bloodlines that produced black noses, however, The Deerpark Improver line seemed to produce a higher percentage of black noses. I have my own theories why the Improver line were prone to this but that is a topic for another time.

 

[Doc]

You're right JIT on the Improver line. One of the most famous was AF Shannon Margie O27, aka Black Nose Margie. She was an awesome female. But progeny from her and her offspring could have black noses, black hairs in the tails , and even black patches on their sides.

 

[knabe]

black noses are correlated with what undesirable trait?

if one has a solid fullblood maine anjou, is that a loss of breed character?

should we be measuring % red and white?

this obsession with pigmentation reminds me of the "darker" side of human character.

can a polled "shorthorn" really be a shorthorn?

i mean don't they need to have short horns?

 

[JTM]

I love Complete. I've been very consistent with my opinion regarding his phenotype.  I just feel he deserves to be in a breeding up program and not used over crossbred cows.  You paid for him, use him how you feel but when you promote a philosophy to newbies that all the legends -Leonhardt, Lent, Keeney, Lasater- oppose, I'm gonna be the first one there asking questions.


All those issues need to be addressed, I agree.

Seriously Ryan, you're going to call me out and condemn me by invoking the names of legends? I have never tried to tell someone to do exactly what I have done with breeding a crossbred bull to crossbred cows. Although I have argued that a good bull on good cows works well because I can speak from experience. I'll take a quote from a friend of mine that I read tonight. "A breeder today can only go on what he has available". ~ Brock Eagon