Pasture sales and disclosure of info (Lack thereof)

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afhm

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The steer semen and spaying heifers is going to be too "big brotherish" for most.  I know I wouldn't want to buy Heat Wave or whoever semen and be told all males had to be steers.  I am a firm believer in the old saying "you reap what you sow" if I want to sow th and pha genetics in my herd the I will either reap the benefits of a great one and a really great one if it tests free or I will suffer loses from the cattle having a lower value when I sell them.  I can guarantee you I will never test cattle that I know are going to the sale barn, if you are foolish enough or so cheap that you have to buy your replacements at the sale barn then you get what you get/deserve.  Not everyone knows what calves they will sell this month at 30 days of age, some are late bloomers and as stated before I have seen calves removed from and added to pasture sales within days of the sale.  One important point to remember in the club calf / showring world the purple banner trumps all like it or not.
 

Show Heifer

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And that, afhm, is just pathetic. True, but pathetic all the same. :'(
 

DL

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DLD - you go to the doctor - he or she tell you something - you nod that you understand - you get home and haven't a clue what he or she just said and this is a major deal because it is your health we are talking about.

Kid, kids parents, parents go to a sale - seller tells them heifer has a chance of being a carrier - they nod that they understand and then they go home and don remember a thing you said or what it means or whether it is important. Talk is cheap.

ITK - yup carrier females are a by product of steer production - if that is the case spay 'em and ship 'em to the feedlot - the guys who spay a lot of heifers do it in about 3 minutes or less for $2 or less...then you don't have to worry that some fool will try to breed their show heifer

oh no - there it goes again the falling karma - I think if I had more spring of rib I could stop the fall ;)

 

justintime

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Show Heifer.... if you lose Karma points for what I consider to be logical comments in your post, well.... I probably will be passing you on the road to negative Karms,  as I agree with most of what you said. To me, if you decide to continue to use carrier bulls, you should have also decided at the same time that you will test all females and male offspring that you plan to sell for show and breeding purposes. To me, these are decisions that go hand-in- hand. Anyone who feels that the costs of testing are too high for you, well.... you simply are playing in the wrong ball park. If your margins are that low, you should be raising commercial cattle or using non carrier animals. Personally, I would never do business with a breeder who refused to test possible carrier animals or release the results to potential buyers. That is just me. But then, I would not buy a used car from a car dealer who had a shaky reputation as well. As I have said on here before, most people buy cattle from people they like, and trust. Trust and reputation are two commodities that can not be purchased at any cost. Both take years to develop and they can both be destroyed in a moment buy one stupid bad deal you make. Let's call a spade a spade..... if you use carrier sires and sell the female and intact male offspring without testing them and publically releasing the test results, I for one, will NOT be doing business with you, no matter how good your cattle are. Period!!!!!The same goes if you are using carrier females in your herd to produce breeding stock.
Both TH and PHA are called GENETIC DEFECTS for a reason. They are defects.... which means they are not normal, in the population. Only a few genetic mutations have been benefical to the beef industry.. such as the genetic mutation for polled cattle. To me, any defect that can lead to, or result in dead offspring, is one that should be eliminated as quickly as possible from a population. Both TH and PHA( and I understand that PHA is a different deal genetically) are in this catagory, and for this reason alone, they should be eliminated. I really don't care how much hair or how much more showy some of these carriers are, the fact remains that they are still defective, in their genotype. You can argue all you want about the fact that you can control having defective dead calves  by never breeding two carriers. The fact still remains that you have literally zero contol on what breeding decisions take place once they leave your farm. I am not saying we need to load all carriers into trucks and send they to the hamburger factory as quickly as possible, but we certainly don't need to be producing more and more carriers each year.

I do not think it is possible for anyone to have absolute total control  as to where their carrier animals end up, unless they personally accompany each one to the kill floor of the packing plant. We used to operate a feedlot and we oftentimes assembled slaughter cattle  for order buyers. I have seen literally thousands of cows  that were sold by farmers, to go to slaughter, sorted off and resold in bred cow sales. Order buyers used to routinely, preg test pens of cows and haul the pregnant cows back to town to bred cow sales. Why did they do this? Well, they were only interested in making money and I saw many of these cows sell for double or triple , what the order buyers purchased them for. Sometimes they had only owned them for a  few days before they were reclassified as good replacements cows  and resold.  Just because you sell your carrier cows for slaughter is not a solid guarantee that is where they will end up.

In regards to yoru suggestions about spaying carrier heifers, I am not sure if this would solve this issue. I think that when heifers are shown in class you should be considering them all as being shown in breeding cattle classes. Spayed heifers, no matter how you define them are not breeding stock. I think it would certainly smart a little to have your non carrier heifer that you purchased for , say..... $10,000 or more, beat by a spayed heifer whose total value when her show career is over amounts to not much over $.60/lb. Worse yet, think of the potential uproar if a breed's National Champion female was a spayed heifer.
Spaying heifers is definitely easy to do, but right now, I am not convinced it is an answer that will solve more problems than it creates.
 

DL

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JIT - I am not sure if you are eloquent because I agree with you and what you say makes sense or if you are eloquent because you are a good writer - but either way a karma point for you!

If these were obvious defects - something you could see with the naked eye (rather than the DNAscope) people wouldn't have all thier excuses for not being upfront and not testing - it would be obvious. With recessive lethal genetic defects people can and clearly do hide - like you say reputation is earned - I would not buy from someone who refuses to test, now would I buy from someone who tells me they might have a defect but it would be OK if I breed Angus - I prefer to do business with people I trust and people I like.....and people who can sleep well at night..
 

Show Heifer

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afhm, I was refering to the fact that the purple banner is all people care about. And I can't argue that. And I find that pathetic.

One point I have thought about today....some have brought up the fact that those little heifers being sold in these pasture sales are "show heifers", and not nessecarily "breeding heifers". And that "no breeder in their right mind would be buying replacement heifers this early".  I these points I also shake my head.....are you (those that said that) saying that all those "show heifers" will be hauled to the sale barn and slaughtered after their show career? Are you saying that a breeder that wants to develope their own heifers so they buy them early, or buy them at a purebred sale, are "lost"??
What exactly is the purpose of a female bovine? If I recall, it is to breed and reproduce.  I think that MAJOR point is being forgotten by both the clubbie world and purebred world.  If "your best heifer/cow" doesn't get bred, then she ISN"T YOUR BEST COW/HEIFER. If your heifer/cow carriers a genetic defect (one of which is lethal) SHE ISN"T A GOOD REPRESENTIVE FOR THE BREED and she isn't your best cow/heifer.  This goes back to the post of "are show cattle functional..." or whatever it was. I guess to me functional means being defect free, and breeding.

To sell a possible carrier to ANYONE (regardless of age) without testing, or at the VERY LEAST discussing what a "possible carrier" is, just doesn't sit well with me. If you can't afford the $27, then you can't afford the feed, the land, the labor, to have cattle and it is best you sell out. I am sorry, that is the way I feel. 

JIT: I just think IF a carrier female was not a "keeper" for the breeder, then before selling at the salebarn, have the heifer spay, so that no one could buy a 'replacement heifer" without knowing about TH/PHA. Kinda like castrating a bull....
Other than that, I tip my hat to you!! Karma for you!!!

And I'm not just picking on the TH/PHA....my nose in the dwarf defect thing in the angus breed. So no one can accuse me of pushing "my breed" over "their breed".  :p
 

afhm

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Thanks for the clarification.  I thought you might had been referring to my opinions.  The comment on being show heifers not breeding heifers makes me bring this point up, its not totally relevant but so what.  There are unfortunately a smaller number of former show heifers especially Jr. show heifers that go on to make productive breeding females.  I have just about sworn off buying former show heifers for cows.  So many of them won't calve until after their 3 rd birthday if they are even bred when their show careers end.  They are hard doers and slow breeders.  I personally would rather have a herd full of carrier or clean females that calves regularly and produce calves that can sell for a premium because of their quality not their blood test than herd of only clean females just because they are clean (I'M NOT SAYING CLEAN FEMALES ARE DON'T CALVE ON A REGULAR BASIS). 
 

justintime

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Show heifer.... good point about spaying prior to shipping carrier females. The only thing is that the same people who feel $27 to test, will result in no presents under the tree for their  children, will also say that they cannot afford to pay for the spaying to be done. I'm giving a Karma point to you for " telling it like it is... or how it should be!!"
 

DL

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justintime said:
Show heifer.... good point about spaying prior to shipping carrier females. The only thing is that the same people who feel $27 to test, will result in no presents under the tree for their  children, will also say that they cannot afford to pay for the spaying to be done. I'm giving a Karma point to you for " telling it like it is... or how it should be!!"

JIT and SH - but unfortunately the people who complain about the cost of the test will certainly complain about the cost of spaying so I don't see it happening - if you don't care you don't care -I still think testing is the cost of doing business - there are always excuses but I haven't heard one yet that I buy -  karma all around ;)

  ;D
 

ELBEE

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                                                                Sorry Lana, BUT!

"IF" I had a genetically contaminated herd. I'd be anxious to know the status of them.

Since I "DON'T" these tests are just a pain in the ass! Not much anticipation here waiting on the results. Sometimes the results sit on the table for days before the envelope is even opened.

God bless Dr. Beever, but he seems even more disorganized than me!

Here, we are selling calves guaranteed defect free, OR MONEY BACK. Test or no test.
 

DL

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ELBEE said:
                                                                Sorry Lana, BUT!

"IF" I had a genetically contaminated herd. I'd be anxious to know the status of them.

Since I "DON'T" these tests are just a pain in the ass! Not much anticipation here waiting on the results. Sometimes the results sit on the table for days before the envelope is even opened.

God bless Dr. Beever, but he seems even more disorganized than me!

Here, we are selling calves guaranteed defect free, OR MONEY BACK. Test or no test.

Oh ELBEE - your situation is different - you have a free herd and you guarantee them clean - that is way way different than selling a heifer out of known carriers and telling the kid she might carry a lethal recessive defect. My herd is clean - the bulls I use are clean - and I just sent in samples on my breeding heifers and bulls - why - well (1) one of the bulls will be collected (2) as far as I know the Ohio Expo will require testing like they did last year (3) if ya make a big splash ya can't complain about the waves!

Do I think that TH testing a purebred Maine herd with absolutely no Improver or Outcast genetics is necessary? Absolutely not, but I understand why Ohio did it (ie all animals in the Maine sale will be tested for TH and PHA) and I support their aggressive stand. Given what we know about the lack of accuracy of pedigrees and the lack of honesty of some breeders (do you really mean Legacy Plus is dead?) I have to support the across the board policy.

If people aren't going to test but will stand by a 100% guarantee that their animals are clean then I think that is a fabulous idea and more power to them (YOU ;D), but they are not the ones in question. So you see Lee we really do agree on this one ;D

I can't address the lack of organization of either you or Dr B
(lol)
 

stick

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The disclosure of info or lack of info isn't just limlted to pasture sales. I gone through several catalogs (8) for upcoming sale and have had to really dig, in most cases, to find the sales policy on TH and PHA test results. Only a few have the info listed in plain view, others have it buried, and still others no info at all. Here are some examples from different sales:

TH - testing
Since every lot had not completed the TH testing process at press time, a
complete list will be available sale day.

If a bred female has a calf from a mating that is a documented case
of Tibial Hemimelia, we will refund the purchase price.

Genetic Defect Status: All cattle selling are guaranteed to be TH/PHA
free, unless otherwise stated on sale day. Only the cattle out of known
carrier parents have been DNA tested for TH & PHA. Cattle that have not
been tested are selling guaranteed to be defect free. If the new owner
wishes to DNA test their purchase, within 6 months of the sale date, and
an unknown carrier is identified, you may, if you wish, return your purchase
for a full refund.

In addition,            has completed extensive testing
for genetic defects. All herd sires, donors and cattle
tracing to a known carrier have been tested free of
all known genetic defects that affect Shorthorn cattle.
All of the cattle in the sale offering that can
trace to a known carrier of a genetic defect have
tested free of such defects.

It looks like progress is being made but....
 

justintime

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I see no reason to test animals in your herd if you know that your sires and cows are free of TH and PHA. For example, if Elbee knows that the descenants of his cattle were free of defects, I feel there is no logical  reason to test. I agree with Elbee, that the testing is a real pain in the ass and it is a double pain for us in Canada, as we have an international boundary to contens with. Several shipments of bovine blood have been seized by US customs, as they consider blood to be a potential security risk. We have not had many issues in recent months, since Dr. Beever has got an exemption for samples, however, it has to be attached to each package of samples in plain view and in entirety. I think there are common sense solutions that will make it easier to identify carriers and still allow people who have animals that do not trace to known carriers to continue to produce their cattle without hassles.

I have no issues with breeders who provide a list of each animals status prior to sale, or with any breeder who states that all animals that trace to known carriers have been tested and found free of defect. I have no problem with breeders who offer guarantees that their cattle are free of defect. My issues are wih breeders who continue to use carrier sires and dams , and do not test the offspring prior to selling them. Either they are so lazy that drawing breath is considered to be work, or they are people who don't really care if they stick someone with a potential problem. These people obviously only care about the almighty dollar, and they have absolutely no concern about the industry as a whole.
 

DL

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justintime said:
I have no issues with breeders who provide a list of each animals status prior to sale, or with any breeder who states that all animals that trace to known carriers have been tested and found free of defect. I have no problem with breeders who offer guarantees that their cattle are free of defect. My issues are wih breeders who continue to use carrier sires and dams , and do not test the offspring prior to selling them. Either they are so lazy that drawing breath is considered to be work, or they are people who don't really care if they stick someone with a potential problem. These people obviously only care about the almighty dollar, and they have absolutely no concern about the industry as a whole.

and that is my point but you said it better
;)
 
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