Question about Deerpark Imrpover 57

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red

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(welcome) Shorthorn_junkie in case I didn't already

To be honest, I know very little about some of the Shorthorn lines. I'll let those like JIT & Oh B & others go more into depth. The only thing I do know about this Improver (as opposed to elbee's Improver) is that he was one of the bulls the brought TH into the Shorthorn line. Now if I'm wrong, I apologize. If right, then I'd make sure you test & bred to clean cattle.

Red
 

Shorthorn_Junkie

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Hi Red, and thanks for the welcome. :)

I do know that Improver 57 is a TH Carrier, however I'm not for sure on the PHA status. 

Improver 57 is a great grandson of the original full Irish "Deerpark Improver" bull (who is also a TH Carrier) that was brought over here from Ireland back in the 70's if my history is correct. 

Improver 57 is also a grandson of "Deerpark Improver 2nd" <aka> Guinness who is also full Irish.  Guinness (Deerpark Improver 2nd)  happens to be a direct son of the original "Deerpark Improver" Bull.   

Now Guinness happens to be clean, and is not a carrier.  Guinness produced some really great cows that made excellent mommas. 

The way I understand it there is still quiet a bit of semen out there on old Guinness (Deerpark Improver 2nd).  I honestly wouldn't mind eventually getting a hold of some semen on him to tell you the truth.   
 

red

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OK, I wasn't sure which was which. I knew he was a carrier of one of the defects. Thanks for setting me straight!

Red
 

Doc

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  I will lead off with JMO. 57th will add some thickness while moderating the frame . If not careful will get them too small. Now for me personally the Prime Time's , Guinesses & Improvers make better cows. With that being said I own a bull with my good friends Martindell Shorthorns that is called NPS Durango that is a 57th son that crosses really well with Trump bloodlines. Bloodstone, Primo & all of them are out of a Durango dtr.
  As far as Guiness semen goes, Wayne Temple with Waymar Semen has some for sale. ;D
 

Shorthorn_Junkie

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Hi Doc,

I had almost forgotten about BBS Hope's Prime Time.  Wow! 

You are right.  He also made some really good cows.  I also remember the old "Deer Trail Goliath" bull which was also a son of Guinness.  I also remember Goliath living up to his name since he was a pretty large framed bull from what I remembered. 

I'll have to check with Waymar on the Guinness semen.  I do know they collected quiet a bit of semen on him years ago. 

Seems like someone told me that there is probably at least 1,500 straws of Guinness that are still out there. 

Just had a thought Doc.  You mention NPS Durango 774, I've got a friend who owns some Durango heifer calves.  I've thought about maybe one day buying two of them from him, and possibly one day breeding both of them to Guinness.  That would be kind of like line breeding in a way since Durango is a Great Great Grandson of Guinness.

I wonder how that would work? 

 

garybob

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Before the world knew about TH, He used to be my "dream sire". I don'y have the time and financial resources to breed him to multiple females, then "test and cull" the offspring, so, I steer clear of ''dirty'' bulls.

GB
 

Malinda

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One of the cows that will go down as an 'all time favorite' of mine was a 57 daughter. She was moderately framed, easy keeping, FERTILE, sound,had  longevity and TH free. Meets my criteria! I culled her at age 14 d/t one teat getting too big.

I crossed her with several bulls over the years, but my favorite cross was Trump. I sold  some friends of mine a Trump ET daughter out of her that is a donor for them.

But, it is always hard to give advice without seeing the pedigree back a couple steps and actually seeing the cow.

Good luck,

Malinda
 

justintime

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Frank Kaehler brought Improver 57th to Canada shortly after he arrived in N. America and tried to sell in here. He was very stiff and passed through the ring at $2000. I was very tempted to buy him, but we were running 5 full Irish sires at the time ( IDS Duke of Dublin, Highfield Irish Mist, CCS Drover, Sandy Creek Ivor and IDS Improver 19K) as well as Waukaru Cinnabar and Ready Go... so I really didn't need any more walking bulls at the time.

As Doc said, Improver 57 will clean up his offspring and add some muscle, but will not add size. He was probably the closest in appearance to old Improver as any of this line. Many people do not realize that a full brother to Improver 57th came to Canada before  Improver 52nd made the trip. When we brought Duke of Dublin from Ireland we also brought a bull named Deerpark Improver 52nd over for Huberdale. The 52nd was considered to be the best bull calf in Ireland that year. He was a full brother to the 57th and I am almost positive that the 52nd was TH free as no descendants that I know of, ever tested positive for TH, unless they had another carrier in the pedigree. In my opinion, Improver 52nd bred much better than the 57th did, and he also was a much bigger bull at maturity. Hubers never got any semen on him though as he turned sterile at about 3 years of age and they shipped him. He was one of the most impressive Irish sires I have ever seen. He had extreme length and much more style than most of the full Irish. The Improver 52 daughters at Hubers were a super set of females with near perfect udders. This bull really set their breeding program up right.

 

shortyjock89

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JIT- do you know of any pics of 52nd floating around?  I would really like to lay eyes on him, as I am a pretty big fan of 57th and what he did when put on Waukaru females.
 

Dale

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We had over 20 daughters of 57th.  One of our best cows (TH free) is a daughter.  Another daughter had our first and only TH calf.  57th adds length, depth and easy-keeping ability.  Some of ours were frame 8, so don't expect moderation every time.  57th sires very deep-red colored cattle that catch your eye--they have "that look."  Sometimes he sires roans with dark red spots.  Our 57th sons were not as good as the daughters.
 

Doc

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  Hey JIT, I gotta agree with you on the 52nd. He is the sire of Huberdale Mastercharge that I'm a huge fan of. Which Ivor did you own? I personally always liked Improver dtrs better than 57th dtrs. I thought they milked better, little more size & a more angular front end , also better birth weights. JMO
 

justintime

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The Ivor bull we owned was Sandy Creek Ivor who was a white Irish bull we purchased in the Denver sale from Paul Janusick, from ILL. He was sired by Tourand Sir Ivor and was out of Hightown Judy 3. He was a complete outcross to most other Shorthorn lines, except his dam was sired by Deerpark Leader 4th ( who in my opinion was the best Irish bull of all time)The rest of his pedigree was totally unknown. I really regret it that we never collected semen on Ivor as he was a really good breeding bull. At the time, we did not think anyone would ever want to use a white Shorthorn bull A.I. and we had semen from so many other bulls that we decided that we would not collect him. Now I wish we had collected Ivor and NOT collected a couple of others.
Ivor was probably the biggest framed and thickest of the Irish bulls we used. He threw some birth weight, but his calves were very good. Even today, I come across some very good cattle in Canada, that when I trace their pedigrees, I often find Ivor in the background.
We did not use him enough in our herd while he was here, and eventually sold him to Dale Wernicke, Lena, ILL. Dale used him in his herd and shortly after he got him, he found him dead in his pasture. He had rolled over in a small rut and stranded himself and died.
This bull is one I wish I could bring back again. I certainly would do things different the next time.
 

justintime

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aj.... yup Ready Go was homozygous polled. We purchased him in Louisville in 1973, where he was Supreme Champion of the Polled Congress at $5200 which at that time was a record price. I paid for this bull from semen sales before I had a natural calf born here, and even though it was 35 years ago, I still sell semen from him every year. Some Canadian breeders still feel he is the best bull they have found for use on heifers, as he calves good, produces a polled calf that is red or very dark roan.... and they are very useable cattle. Ready Go daughters  have near perfect udders and are very fertile, productive cows.

By the way, in another thread about buying sight unseen, I purchased Ready Go sight unseen, as I have numerous other cattle that have worked real well for me. I have also had some that did not work real well that were purchased in this manner, but I have also had several that I purchased myself that did not work either. I would have to say, that I can not remember any time that I was treated badly in a "sight unseen " purchase. I am not saying that my bid may not have been run a few times, but that happens occasionally when I was bidding myself. In any event, I have decided how high I was willing to go, and if that is the case, I should not complain about the price I paid. I truly believe that being able to purchase cattle for less than their value, helps no one... including the buyer. Buying cattle cheaper than they should be worth often only puts a value on the cattle you have at  home. I have known many times that I was being run,when bidding on an animal. Before I bid, I have decided how high I am willing to bid on the particular animal selling, and if I purchase it within that limit I have set, I am fully OK with it. I know that many others would never agree with me on this but that is how I regard this. In my world, a good sale held by anyone, helps me value all the cattle I produce at home.

A few years ago, I saw a good bull selling in a sale that I thought would be of interest to another breeder. I phoned him and told him about this bull and he decided to give me a bid on him. The last thing he told me was " Now make sure you don't buy this bull for $1500. The last thing I need is a cheap bull running in my pasture as it will only make people think his calves are not as good as they actually are"  I don't run into many people like this guy, but I do appreciate how his brain works. He has been very successful in breeding and selling cattle at very good prices.
 

justintime

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I forgot to include in my last reply, that I do not condone bid running and I will not be involved in doing it myself. My point is that I know that it does occur on occasion, and I understand that it is a part of this business that happens. My point is, that I accept it as just that... a part of the business, and a part that I tend to not like happening. At the same time, I do not like to see cattle selling for much less than they are worth as this doesn't help anyone. So you can see that while I do not condone it, the sales management also has the job of trying to get as much value as possible for the seller. Oftentimes they are caught in the middle and I understand that part of this.
That is why I always have decided long before an animal I am interested in, hits the sale ring, exactly how far I am willing to go . If I purchase it for this price or less, I am OK with the price, regardless if a few extra bids were thrown in along the way. If the animal sells for more than I have felt I would be willing to bid, I let it go and go on to bid on the next animal I have selected. Only on very rare occasions do I ever bid more than I have decided before the sale, and that is only in occasions where I feel that one more bid will purchase an animal. I certainly am not smart enough to know within $25 or $50 what the value of an animal is.
 

garybob

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Does anyone know about the "Defect Status" of IDS Improver2K? Ol' 'Darth Vader' has the highest milk EPD, with the highest accuracies on all his EPD's of all the ''great'' Irish Sires used during that era. Would use him again, if I knew that He was a 'clean' Bull.

GB
 

JoeBnTN

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I agree Darth Vadar was one of the great Irish bulls - we used him extensively and he produced some great bulls and females.  We had several bulls including  Hillside Improver 2K, and a polled bull called Excitement out of our National Champion Lady Manuela cow, that really did a great job.  The Improver bull was Reserve bull in the Denver sale (behind one of R Lee Johnson's bulls), back when the Denver sale was the place to sell bulls and Excitement was an All American nominee the same year Goliath was shown and was one of the high sellers in Denver.  Both sired rugged, beef bulls and the Kibler Family in Washington topped many of the Spokane sales for several years with Excitement sons.  Don Cardey told me that they had found some TH calves a fewyears ago out of Excitement dams and the only link to Improver was through 2K, so I assume he was although we never had any problems.  If he was clean, I agree he would do the Shorthorn breed as much good as any bull I've used.
 
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