Selling embryos from "carrier" Angus donor cows

[husker1]

I have been approached by a couple people interested in purchasing embryos from Fawn Calf positive Angus donor cows.  I am struggling with fair options if we were to price such embryos.  I know that some people would think this wouldn't be worth the hassle.  However, these are some donor cows with very desirable and marketable pedigrees...their babies could potentially be worth lots of money. 

My thoughts:

1.  Price the embryos at an agreed upon price.  This would be the "clean calf" scenario for the buyer.  Let's say $500 each, for argument's sake.

2.  Buyer pays up front and carries the embryos.  As normal, the buyer is guaranteed 1 pregnancy for 3 embryos, or 2 out of 5.

3.  Buyer tests any resulting calves.  Any resulting calves that test positive as a carrier, and the test results are presented to us...we refund the buyer an amount agreed upon at purchase. 

- Based on the registration rules of the Angus association, after October of this year, the carrier bulls will be ineligible to be registered, while the heifers will be able to register (as a carrier) for 2 more years.

What do you Steerplanet folks think of this type of an arrangement?  What am I missing?

 

[kfacres]

if they are wanting to take the chance at purchasing dirty embroyos... then what's the big whoop on refunding their money if the calves come out carriers?

 

[simmyman67]

Yeah, if they risk it, then it's their choice.

 

[polevaultcowboy21]

Contracts that are a great way to cover your ass. I think you have covered it pretty well. Good thinking

 

[DL]

What do you Steerplanet folks think of this type of an arrangement?  What am I missing?

What is your reputation worth?

 

[husker1]

Reputation is worth everything!

Plus, I want our customers to be satisfied and make money.  If their E.T. calf ends up a carrier, there's a pretty good chance they won't make alot of money or be satisfied...

From a couple of the responses, I gather that some feel it's crazy to put in embryos out of carrier cows.  Remember, these embryos also have a 50% of being clean, and, if clean, they will have super-marketable pedigrees that could be quite valuable in the Angus circles...and you might have a fraction of the cost in the embryo, compared to what a similar pedigreed "clean" embryo would cost.  Granted, it is somewhat of a gamble...

I'm listening to all responses...thanks for taking the time and replying.  Certainly haven't made my mind up on how to proceed.

 

[GoWyo]

Maybe you could make your arrangement to buy back the carriers at a set price so you can make sure they are fed out for slaughter.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

This is what I would do if I was you;

I would price the embryos accordingly;
if there is a chance that they will be a carrier, then they should be less expensive to compensate for that chance that they may be a carrier and then not as valuable of an animal.

If they do come out being a carrier, then the customer has the choice as to slaughter that animal or breed with them with the chance that 50% of their progeny would be clean also.
If they are not able to be used as purebred angus, if the animal is that good, then there would be a place for them in the clubby world somewhere.

If the resulting calves do come back clean, then the customer gets a valuable animal at a good price;
the whole thing is a gamble.....like going to the casino and rolling the dice!

I personally would not refund money depending on if the resulting calves came back dirty.
To me, that would be dragging the whole deal out for at least a whole year more; things can change drastically in a year; ppl can die, go broke, animals can die, what do you do if the resulting calf comes back a carrier but then "dies" later.....just too much can happen.

the trick will be to find a fair and marketable price for these; enough to compensate you but not too much for the buyer.

If I was a buyer buying these possible dirty embryos, I would certainly buy enough (at least 5) so that the odds would be that I would get at least one resulting clean animal.

I don't think any of this should hurt your reputation.  You are being upfront, honest, hiding nothing.  My customers might do things I wouldn't do myself but last time I checked, we do have the right to make our own choices; good or bad.

just my thoughts.

 

[DL]

Buying embryos is always a risk
Add to that the risk of having a FCS carrier calf
It is possible (sine it is 50% with each egg) that your buyer could end up with all carrier calves
It is also possible that your buyer could end up with all clean calves

There are lots of good clean Angus genetics not sure why we need to be flushing carriers but this is the good old US of A

I personally would not sell eggs that came from a carrier female or were sired by a carrier bull (no one is probably surprised at that )

Once those calves are born you have no control over what the new owner does

If you are not worried about your reputation, and they think this is a "must have mating",  just sell the eggs outright with the usual 1 of 3 or 2 of 5 60d conception rate - and move on - if they want to take the risk it is their risk to take

 

[Okotoks]

Before TH testing was available we used a carrier bull and some of his descendants. When testing became available we started testing our entire herd. The following was the policy we put in place for our herd. It has worked for us us and allowed us to keep some very good cows and eventually get some TH free offspring but allow us to know we were not spreading a genetic defect. I just copied our policy from the website and it's referring to just after the TH test was developed --need to do some website updates!

Diamond Shorthorns Tibial Hemimelia (TH) Policy

At Diamond Shorthorns we recognize the importance of testing and identifying carriers of the genetic defect Tibial Hemimelia (TH).  We have started getting results back on our herd.  We first tested the AI bulls and walking bulls that have an influence on our current fall sale cattle as well as the cattle themselves.  We will be testing the balance of the herd this fall.  Our policy regarding carriers is the following - We will not sell carrier cattle for purebred or commercial breeding stock.  At the recent "All That Glitters" sale we withdrew three lots identified as THC from our consignment.  Any top end THC females will be bred to non carrier bulls, the resulting offspring tested and again only non carriers will be offered for sale.  All bull calves kept to be sold for breeding will also be tested and again only TH free bulls will be sold.  Many good animals that could not previously be tested can now be identified and their TH Free offspring can still benefit the breed.  We are pleased that Northern Legend 3N, Diamond Captain Mark 27C, Emerald Bigtime 49B, Diamond Northern Gold 5N and Diamond Regal Legend 4R have tested TH free.  Gafa Captain Macbest 6G has been identified as a TH carrier.  We have several top producing daughters of 6G in our herd that will be tested.  We have already tested some TH free offspring from these cows and the 6G influence will continue to be felt in our herd through his TH free daughters and the TH free offspring of carrier daughters.  We feel it is of utmost importance that carrier bulls are never offered as breeding stock for commercial herds.

 

[DL]

okotoks - a very reasonable policy - once a carrier leaves your farm you have little or no control - IHMO breeders do not sell carriers as breeding stock - multipliers do

 

[RyanChandler]

okotoks - a very reasonable policy - once a carrier leaves your farm you have little or no control - IHMO breeders do not sell carriers as breeding stock - multipliers do

  (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock>

 

[husker1]

Appreciate all the comments thus far.  I am certainly listening to each and every response. 

I'm totally torn on this deal.  I understand the negative aspects...but also am aware of the potential positive outcomes as well.

Thanks.

 

[kfacres]

Appreciate all the comments thus far.  I am certainly listening to each and every response. 

I'm totally torn on this deal.  I understand the negative aspects...but also am aware of the potential positive outcomes as well.

Thanks.

sounds to me like your getting all worked up over something that's as clear as mud... <deadhorse>

 

[husker1]

Certainly not worked up; just wanted to see some different opinions!    8)

 

[JSchroeder]

The people asking you to flush her know what they are doing and they have a demand for the genetics.  If you don't feel comfortable selling them embryos from the cows, why do you still have the cows on your own place?

Do you trust yourself to manage them properly but not the people asking to buy them?  In that case, don’t sell them the embryos and tell them why; you don’t trust them to get rid of the carriers.

The "breeder" vs "multiplier" rhetoric is just a thinly veiled ad hominem attack that allows a person to look down their noses at those who don't fall in line with the way they think things should be done.

 

[aj]

This is a discussion board. If you throw a question out there it will create discussion. Most of the club calf deal is a wheel and deal and deceive and trade and primp. This is a multiplyor or a cattle trader. It is a point made. A cattle breeder (imo) is someone like cates or Wakaura that care about a breed and spend 50 years perfecting it. I think dl made valid point. If it is ok to raise defective cattle why cant we discuss it?

 

[JSchroeder]

Who in the world said you can't discuss it?  I'm calling out the insult stuff for what it is, an ad hominem attack.  There's no need for the "multiplier vs breeder" rhetoric.  That's not discussing something, that's just passive aggressively calling people names.

No, I'm not the slightest bit surprised you'd be okay with that form of discussion, you’ve shown yourself to be quite fond of it over the years.  Your disdain for the "club calf deal" is so hard to contain that you've even brought it into a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with club calves or Shorthorn cattle.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

Who in the world said you can't discuss it?  I'm calling out the insult stuff for what it is, an ad hominem attack.  There's no need for the "multiplier vs breeder" rhetoric.  That's not discussing something, that's just passive aggressively calling people names.

No, I'm not the slightest bit surprised you'd be okay with that form of discussion, you’ve shown yourself to be quite fond of it over the years.  Your disdain for the "club calf deal" is so hard to contain that you've even brought it into a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with club calves or Shorthorn cattle.

awesome post!    <rock>

 

[aj]

So.......we can't use use the word multiplier? That is aggressively calling people names? What word should be used instead of multiplier?