Shorthorn Cows

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JCC

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Hello to everyone. After lerking for many months I thought I might tap into the vast knowledge of the shorthorn breeders on the board. I am wanting to know what shorthorn cow would you consider to be the "perfect" cow? I ask this question for many reasons, firstly I am looking for what I consider to be the perfect shorthorn cow and have yet to find her. I am looking for that cow that is mid 6 frame, weights about 1300-1400lbs, weans about half her body weight in calf, maintains her flesh with little to know imputs, and doesn't have utter problems. I have seen and looked at may cows and can find pieces that I like but none have really ever been "the one". The basis for this question is I believe that is what the commercial man is looking. Of the shorthorn cows that we have we run the whole gammet of problems from hard keepers to terrible udders and everyting inbetween.
I guess maybe I should have prefaced this with I grew up breeding Angus cattle and I want all that in a red and white package. ;)
Thanks for all the information.
 

Doc

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(welcome)  I geuss my question is , are you saying that ANGUS are the perfect cattle & you want to duplicate them?
 

shortdawg

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(thumbsup) (welcome)

I would say " Roan Sue " would rank right up there with the best of them on phenotype. You could paint her any color and she would hold her own. I've seen WHR Sonny's dam - the Cumberland 3R52 cow and at 15 yrs old she still can hold her own and has generated enough $$$$$$ to burn three wet mules !!!!!!
 

JCC

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Doc
I really didn't intend to say that Angus are perfect cows, what I did mean to say was that I just wish that the Shorthorns were a little more like the Angus when it comes to economically important traits. I can name some great cows in the Shorthorn breed but most of them are not know for commercial exceptablility but rather what they have and they've produced has done in the show ring. Maybe the ones that win and the commercially exceptable cows are the same critter for Sorthorns? But I don't believe that holds true in the Angus breed. JMO
 

Doc

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Bawndoh said:
Could someone post pics of Roan Sue?

I got this off Milestones website. Don't know how well it will paste. I've got to agree with Shortdawg as far as phenotypically goes.
 

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Doc

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JCC said:
Doc
I really didn't intend to say that Angus are perfect cows, what I did mean to say was that I just wish that the Shorthorns were a little more like the Angus when it comes to economically important traits. I can name some great cows in the Shorthorn breed but most of them are not know for commercial exceptablility but rather what they have and they've produced has done in the show ring. Maybe the ones that win and the commercially exceptable cows are the same critter for Sorthorns? But I don't believe that holds true in the Angus breed. JMO

JCC, I understand to a degree what you're saying. But for me 2 things here. 1) If you were raised with Angus what made you switch to Shorties? 2) Shorties won't ever have the commercial acceptability in the present day world as long as order buyers are color blind & only see black. You cut the hide off & I'll put a Shortie carcass up against a Angus anyday. JMO.
 

itk

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Is there a angus cow that is famous and known breed wide for all of the sons she has working in commercial herds. I admit I'm not a angus guy but all of the angus cows I've heard of are famous for producung great show heifers or promotional bulls not commercial animals. BTW  (welcome)
 

SWMO

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That's a great udder for any breed on a cow with some age.  That to me is the most important part of a cow.  Good udder, good feet and legs = a long life.
 

justintime

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One of my favorite all time Shorthorn females is long time dead... she was Tonquish Rodeo Lady. In my mind a perfect size, and flawless in design, and a udder that could not be drawn  better by even the best artist. Roan Sue, who has already been mentioned is also a great female. My Top Ten list would include females from several different bloodlines...and some of them would not necessarily fit the same mold in how they are designed.

This is maybe a bit off topic but does anyone else think that some of the animals that are considered to be near perfection, oftentimes never produce offspring as good as they are themselves. Just recently, I was talking with a leading Angus breeder, who has been extremely successful, and he commented that he has seen 5 bulls that he considered as close to being perfect as is possible.He said that none of these bulls ever produced any offspring  that were as good as themselves, He said that as a cattle breeder, you have to develope the knowledge that will allow you to select breeding stock that are one generation away from perfection, in order to produce the real great ones. I had never considered this before, but thinking back to some of the cattle I consider to be in my" short list" of great individuals, many of them really did not set the world on fire by their progeny.
I greatly respect this man for his cattle knowledge, but I am not sure if he is right in his thoughts here or not.  What does everyone else think?
 

JCC

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Doc
I haven't switched from breeding Angus cattle, I just happened to marry a shorthorn herd as well. Horns have been in her family well over a 100 years, it is just their heritage. I enjoy the breed and the people in it seem to be more open and friendlier than other breeds I have delt with. I guess in my mind since we are going to continue to have shorties around with the anguswhy not find the best shorties that I could afford?
As far as hide color goes I completely agree. The ASA has done one HE!! of a job in marketing. I truely believe that most commercial herds could bennefit from a sire that is not angus. IMO too many breeders have been black on black for soo long they are basically breeding angus to angus forgetting about heterosis and hybred vigor. 
On a side not what shorthorn bulls are udder improvers?


Thanks for the replies and the conversation.
 

JoeBnTN

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Interesting topic.  It seems to me that the difference in the two breeds is the reference point they use for "perfect."  In the Angus breed there is (and has been) great selection pressure put on commercially viable traits, so the cows that produce cattle that meet these traits are designed differently than the cattle designed to produce show cattle.  Breeders who believe in the value of the commercial sector have a different perspective.  As an example, the cows at Henry Gardiner's or Whermann's look dramatically different than the cows that Champion Hill maintains.  Both types have their advocates and a viable marketplace, so you can find your "perfect" cow by visiting herds that have similar philosophies to yours.  Where I see a potentail problem in the near future for the Angus breed is with the obsession for EPD performance with no thought of phenotype.  I've seen some Angus cattle recently with incredible numbers that were frail, really small and crooked legged, but they ranked in the top 5% of the breed for certain traits and they brought tons of money.  It will be interesting to see where this type of genotypic selection leads the breed over the next few years.

On the other hand, in the Shorthorn breed for the past 20 years or so the emphasis has been on developing show ring cattle not commercially acceptable cattle, so the only market has been for these "show mommas."  However, there are a great number of commercially viable cows in this breed, there just hasn't been anyone trying to maximize their value.  If you want to see Shorthon cows that are designed for the commercial sector, look for daughters of Mel Bar Rodeo Drive 347, Deer Trail Sagebrush, many of the Waukaru, Rocker Brothers, Byland and Keith Lauer bred cattle, among many others.  Many of these are 1250-1400 lbs. 5-6 frame cows that are deep, easy doing and most importantly sound.  They are out there and they are #%*& good.

In fact i think that's been one of the Shorthorn breeds biggest problems over the past few years - soundness.  As the demand and price for show cattle has increased so has the pressure for the show ring look.  Unfortunately that "look" has led us to cattle that are way too straight in their joints, lack flex to their hock, and can't get out and move.  It amazes me the number of name bulls that have been put down at 3-5 years of age because they were crippled.  If this isn't addressed in the near future, I think it will create a major problem for the breed.

Just to throw a little fuel on the fire.  The absolute "best looking" cow I ever saw was a daughter of the old Polled Hereford bull - Perfection (that alone ought to raise some eyebrows from the oldtimers on this board) out of the national champion Red and White Holstein.  This was a 60+" cow that weighed over a ton at maturity.  As a 2 year old she weaned an 800 lb. calf and at least twice weaned calves over 1000 lbs. with creep.  Was this cow practical - i don't know, she always weaned nearly half her weight, the calves were sound, etc, but how many of us have the resource to feed a cow like that.  Nevertheless she was one #$%& of a cow to see.  My point is beauty (or perfection) is in the eye of the beholder.

Just remember - only you can define perfect, as it relates to your own program and objectives. But if you do find the "perfect one" you better buy her!
 

garybob

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Go to Lakeside Shorthorns' website. Ms. Sue has an interst in "034", check him out. Also, examine the pic of his sister.

Going to work, let's chat in the future.

GB
 

coyote

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Jcc, Your asking what Shorthorn bull produces good  udders , Our bull Muridale Buster 14K has been producing daughters with good udders, below is one of his daughters udder.
 

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shortdawg

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JCC, I also raise Angus along with my Shorthorns. If you want some of the best Mamas you can get, cross those great Angus cows with one of those high performance Shorthorn bulls. These cattle are very much accepted by commercial cattlemen in my neck of the woods. I don't end up keeping any b/c my neighbors buy all I can raise.
 

shortyisqueen

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I am still waiting to find the perfect cow of any breed...but this mother/daughter pair are two of my favorite cows in the breed (phenotypically).

 

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shortyisqueen

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As JoeBnTN said, its is pretty likely the most prolific commercially-oriented producers in the breed do not get all the press. They are quiety making a herd bull every year that sells to a commercial cattleman. They are certainly out there but the number of cattle in the breed is incredibly small when compared with Angus registrations - so you are going to look farther for them.

I'm incredibly biased of course, but one of my other favorite cows in the breed is this cow, Lilian 69J. She weans half of her body weight every year, breeds back on time on a roughage diet, has great feet, and is getting fatter as the years go by. Her sons have been commercially accepted and she has many grandsons working in large commercial herds as well. I think she is proof that there are very useful females out there that can produce for all facets of the industry.

 

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Shorthorn_Junkie

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Could not find a picture of her to post on here, but would like to hear your alls thoughts on the cow "Marellan Irish Isobel 38th".
 

justintime

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Isobel 38th would probably be in my top ten list. She has has the phenotype and and also has the production to make prove herself. Shortyisqueen you picked a couple of my favorites as well. I have always thought that Green Ridge DP Mary and her daughter Mary 905 have been incredible females.When DP Mary sold as a calf in the Green Ridge sale, I was the runner up bidder and this is another regret I have had since, that I did not bite the bullet and go farther on her. She is from the same Una cow family that our former herd sire, Irish Mist comes from.  I understand that DP Mary died this winter of natural causes,( I think she was 15 or 16 years old). Right at the moment, I am waiting for some embryos from Mary 905 to arrive here.

When I saw that Mark Ebling at Hi-View Ranch in Texas had actually had embryos out of 905 washed when they were collected, so that they were exportable, I bought them immediately. I am not sure why most Americans do not take the extra step and trypsin wash embryos when they are collected, as it is a simple procedure and veyr inexpensive.  What this does is it makes embryos exportable to many countries. It is also a good thing herd heath wise as it has been proven that a simple washing procedure makes embryos completely sterile.... and thus they are completely disease free. This why we could still access the US market, as well as many other world markets when the US border was closed to Canadian cattle . The cost of doing this is so minimum that our ET vets do not even charge extra for doing it and it really doesn't take more than a few extra minutes to wash all the embryos from a flush. Embryos are becoming the " method of choice" for transporting genetics between countries. I have seen many embryos offered , in the US,  that I would like to add to my herd, but when I have checked into them, they are not exportable.

Some of my top ten list of cows would not be house hold names to most breeders. I am often really surprised when I stumble upon a super cow, oftentimes in a small herd, and oftentimes the owner does not realize just how good this cow is. Two years ago, I made a whirlwind 3 day tour of Ontario and we must have looked through at least 20 herds. I saw some cows in some relatively unknown herds that were very impressive individuals. Occasionally, I find one that will knock another cow out of my top ten list, and take her place. I am much like Shortyisqueen, in that I also am a bit biased, but the cow pictured on my avator is one of my present day favorites. She is Prairie Lane Sparkle 1K and I found her in a herd of 11 cows less than 100 miles from my farm. She is also the dam of one of my herd bulls, Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M x, who is now being marketed in over 100 countries by Semex. ( Semex has purchased the world rights in him). Sparkle is a tank, and resembles a Kenworth on a Volkswagon frame. She is a medium framed cow, probably at 5.5  to 5.8, yet she still weighed 1740 right off pasture the day her calf was weaned. When she is pregnant I cannot get her through my chute as she is too thick. Some really big bulls have made it through this chute. This cow alone has made me realize how important easy fleshing ability is in a cow herd. If I had 100 cows like her, keeping a cow herd would be rather simple. I know that if I had a few more cows like her, I could have a much smaller herd and still generate as much income each year. In 2007 every embryo this cow produced was sold to Scotland. She has just calved again, a week ago with a super heifer calf, and we have people lined up wanting to flush her. Right now I have 4 flushes spoken for, from the US, Canada and New Zealand.... and somewhere in here, I would like to get some embryos for myself.

Sparkle is not a show cow. What I like about her is she possesses so many traits that are important to commercial beef producers. Like Shortyisqueen's Lillian 69J cow, she can work in all parts of the industry. The picture of her was taken in late October a few days after she returned from a sale where we sold a flush in her. The reason she looks like she is clipped...  is because she was. Since I put this picture on my website, I probably have had over 20 inquiries about embryos from her... which says a lot about the power of the internet.

My point is that there are more cows like this out there, and some really great cows have never had a show career or been a part of a leading breeders herd. Cows like this can be found, but it does take time as you will go through many herds before you find one. It is a lot like searching for diamonds. You have to sift through a pile of junk, but if you are persistent, you can end up with the occasional gem.
 

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justintime

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Opps... I attached the wrong picture!!!!  This was taken in  August/07 .Here is the right one, taken in late October /07
 

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