Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock

[3 Eagles shorthorns]

JTM After researching and talking with local people I think Im going to do what you are doing. we are going to breed shorthorn cattle and cross them with Simmental, in hopes of higher weaning weights because that's what most  commerical producers are looking for come fall time. I have not done that yet, but I think I will be headed that way soon if the shorthorn calves don't wean 650-700 pound range. Calving out my first set of shorthorn cows I can honestly say I am very pleased! They are gentle, calve easy, and with the cows I bought I have found they will let any calf in the herd nurse.

 

[librarian]

3 Eagles, when I was looking for Boa Kae pictures I saw that red bull and thought he looked like yours or that he would be a good bull for you. If you raise some bulls out of these old genetics try to be patient and give them a chance. They really dont grow fully into themselves until they are 4 years old. Not saying that's a good or bad thing- just how some seem to develop. I like your bull- he might go well on some of the Paint Valley females.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

To reach on a consistency performance, is necessary data!
Data is got with many people using that kind genetics to produce enough data, and after produce consistancy data.
If Shorthorn will always look as a niche breed, we will never get data and never get performance.
Aberdeens are three steps in front Shorthorns as they have DATA, MARKETING and PEOPLE.
People that make a harddefence of their breed, marketing from these people to sale their product, and data from their product that will produce the performance!

 

[JTM]

To reach on a consistency performance, is necessary data!
Data is got with many people using that kind genetics to produce enough data, and after produce consistancy data.
If Shorthorn will always look as a niche breed, we will never get data and never get performance.
Aberdeens are three steps in front Shorthorns as they have DATA, MARKETING and PEOPLE.
People that make a harddefence of their breed, marketing from these people to sale their product, and data from their product that will produce the performance!

I've got all kinds of data. I invite you to check out my website where we have posted our latest ultrasound data and our Great State Feedout Carcass data from 2015. I know what I have but I don't know what other people have. I don't care what their accuracies say. They aren't proving to be accurate to what I am seeing. There just isn't enough commercially minded seedstock Shorthorn breeders that are collecting data.

3 Eagles, when I was looking for Boa Kae pictures I saw that red bull and thought he looked like yours or that he would be a good bull for you. If you raise some bulls out of these old genetics try to be patient and give them a chance. They really dont grow fully into themselves until they are 4 years old. Not saying that's a good or bad thing- just how some seem to develop. I like your bull- he might go well on some of the Paint Valley females.

Forgive me here Librarian but I always worry when I hear that cattle fully grow into themselves at 4 years old. I started out around Maine Anjou cattle (old traditional type) and Shorthorn show heifer type cattle that just kept growing after they were 3. I would much rather have a cow that made it to 900-1000 lbs. at 2 years old, has a calf, then goes on to be 1100-1300 at 3 years old. If they keep growing past that they will potentially have fertility issues, efficiency issues due to high mature weight, and potentially would create steer calves that would take too long to feed out.

 

[JTM]

JTM After researching and talking with local people I think Im going to do what you are doing. we are going to breed shorthorn cattle and cross them with Simmental, in hopes of higher weaning weights because that's what most  commerical producers are looking for come fall time. I have not done that yet, but I think I will be headed that way soon if the shorthorn calves don't wean 650-700 pound range. Calving out my first set of shorthorn cows I can honestly say I am very pleased! They are gentle, calve easy, and with the cows I bought I have found they will let any calf in the herd nurse.

My suggestions would be to add in some Black Angus also. This will help you get them solid black in color also over time. Breeding Shorthorns to Simmentals you will get a lot of red cattle. Which is fine if you aren't getting docked for that. We are trying to keep our Shorthorn percentage from 1/4 to 3/4 but also our British influence at 3/8 to 5/8. In this system I look at the Black Angus and Shorthorns as similar ingredients that compliment each other but both are necessary to get the best end result. The Simmental is where you get the real kicker because you get the extra growth but maintain maternal traits. Good luck and don't hesitate to contact Paul or I to talk cattle.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.

Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.

I disagree on no commercial type cattle except for A@T. Saskvalley, Kaper, Waukaru, JSF, Lovings, Studer, XBAR, Cody Nelson, bigelow in Cali, muridale, Paint Valley on and on. These folks have made good strides to me. Unless you've sampled these places thoroughly I don't think you can say nobody has any good commercial stuff to build off of.

 

[librarian]

Yes E3, I have similar thoughts. (and don't forget YY, which has a Dover base, or tried and true programs like Lakeside)
There are many outfits out there that have put in many years building  relevant Shorthorn bloodlines from their own blends. I wonder ,sometimes, what happens when one big outfit becomes the "go to" place for real world Shorthorn genetics.  If buyers are don't have time to look further, or dont have the inclination to study, then one strain could overwhelm the perception of what Shorthorns are and how they perform. A&T is good, but its far from being the one and only.
About the growth rate on older genetics- it's not as though its indeterminate growth, the frame size doesn't increase with age, just the mass. Since we were taking about Native strains, it's helpful to have accurate expectations. I have thought it counterintuitive, though, to look to a late maturing bull for early maturing offspring. The upside is bulls of this type tend to live longer.
Again, it's just an observation, not recommendation. When we go back in time to recover things like depth and spring of rib we recover other things as well- some not useful.

 

[bedrock]

Id like to hear everyone describe "commercial " type cattle

 

[JTM]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.

Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.

I disagree on no commercial type cattle except for A@T. Saskvalley, Kaper, Waukaru, JSF, Lovings, Studer, XBAR, Cody Nelson, bigelow in Cali, muridale, Paint Valley on and on. These folks have made good strides to me. Unless you've sampled these places thoroughly I don't think you can say nobody has any good commercial stuff to build off of.

Brock, if you can speak for all of those programs then good for you. I don't see the data and I have not sample all of them. I can say that I believe Gary Kaper breeds and culls cattle similar to us and maybe Cody Nelson. The main thing I am looking for in a program or an animal is what are their main priorities. Are they taking ultrasound data, if not, they aren't really commercially minded, they are selling eye appeal. Then what is the birthweight average on their herd? Size of their cows in their herd? Udder structure? If there is no real consistency in any of this then I can't feel very confident in sending my Shorthorn program into a direction that I have no idea if it's going to improve those traits. I have great genetics from a lot of good Shorthorn programs in my herd including Leveldale, Muridale, Lakeside, and JSF. These are great cattle when mixed with the Dover lines and stabilized for low birth weight, high marbling, and good ribeyes like A&T has done over the years.

 

[RyanChandler]

Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness.

The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence.

I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed...

• I definitely agree with you about the diversity being a weakness.  Diversity in bloodlines and scale (size) is a good thing.  Diversity in type is not a good thing.  Form fits function: the ideal beef production phenotype is not subjective.  Just as there is an ideal phenotype for an NFL offensive lineman, there is an ideal phenotype for an efficient beef cow. With all things, there is a MOST ideally suited design

-

• The lack of consistency is from generations of crossing dissimilar phenotypes. Similar to what you say you're doing with Renegade and Apostle: crossing dissimilar phenotypes and expecting the offspring to go on to breed consistently. You've stated you've already experienced the unsatisfactory results of using SH bulls that were bred by crossing dissimilars -- why you think that same outcome won't present itself in your current situation of crossing dissimilars, I'm not sure.

-

• I find your comment about the A&T cattle with DRC influence being the 'only' SH cattle to perform as good as Angus to be pretty ironic.  I mean, you do realize that only a quarter of Renegade's OR Captain Rob's pedigree has any DRC influence?  The entire top HALF of Renegade's pedigree is Eionmor breeding.  The entire bottom HALF of Captain Rob's pedigree is Rob Sneed breeding.  Maybe you can shed some light on why you leave out mentioning the predominant influence in those cattle and instead give credit to the A&T or DRC influence. 

-

• I agree that the DRC influenced cattle are really good cattle.  Quite of few of my cows have DRC breeding within a generation or two. In fact, just last month I bought a group of purebred heifers from Ralph Larson- most of which have a double shot of DRC breeding.  They're good cows absolutely,, but so are their unrelated herd mates- cows out of JSF bred Tsunami sons (Gauge, Troubadour, Red Rebel),  cows out of JSF bred Jazz sons (Proud Jake 49U, Jazz star 73U, Maestro 35U, Master of Jazz 22U) and on and on.  I've had commercial cattle all my life- I know where the bar/standard of commercially acceptability is. These SH's I've mentioned are good cattle too and can and do perform right along side them. 
  

 

[JTM]

Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness.

The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence.

I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed...

• I definitely agree with you about the diversity being a weakness.  Diversity in bloodlines and scale (size) is a good thing.  Diversity in type is not a good thing.  Form fits function: the ideal beef production phenotype is not subjective.  Just as there is an ideal phenotype for an NFL offensive lineman, there is an ideal phenotype for an efficient beef cow. With all things, there is a MOST ideally suited design

-

• The lack of consistency is from generations of crossing dissimilar phenotypes. Similar to what you say you're doing with Renegade and Apostle: crossing dissimilar phenotypes and expecting the offspring to go on to breed consistently. You've stated you've already experienced the unsatisfactory results of using SH bulls that were bred by crossing dissimilars -- why you think that same outcome won't present itself in your current situation of crossing dissimilars, I'm not sure.

-

• I find your comment about the A&T cattle with DRC influence being the 'only' SH cattle to perform as good as Angus to be pretty ironic.  I mean, you do realize that only a quarter of Renegade's OR Captain Rob's pedigree has any DRC influence?  The entire top HALF of Renegade's pedigree is Eionmor breeding.  The entire bottom HALF of Captain Rob's pedigree is Rob Sneed breeding.  Maybe you can shed some light on why you leave out mentioning the predominant influence in those cattle and instead give credit to the A&T or DRC influence. 

-

• I agree that the DRC influenced cattle are really good cattle.  Quite of few of my cows have DRC breeding within a generation or two. In fact, just last month I bought a group of purebred heifers from Ralph Larson- most of which have a double shot of DRC breeding.  They're good cows absolutely,, but so are their unrelated herd mates- cows out of JSF bred Tsunami sons (Gauge, Troubadour, Red Rebel),  cows out of JSF bred Jazz sons (Proud Jake 49U, Jazz star 73U, Maestro 35U, Master of Jazz 22U) and on and on.  I've had commercial cattle all my life- I know where the bar/standard of commercially acceptability is. These SH's I've mentioned are good cattle too and can and do perform right along side them. 
  

On your first point once again you are wrong. I am not crossing dissimilar cattle. Apostle is more "like kind" to Renegade than any other Shorthorn bull I have ever used besides GS&J Captain Rob 3X. I will have to wait to see on his daughters and their mothering ability and their udders but by the calving ease and vigor of his calves I don't have any doubts things will be good. Go up and read Dbird's comments again and then you either believe me or think I'm a liar. The birth weights were consistent and from what you are saying they should be all over the board correct? You need to open your mind a bit, breeding like kind to like kind is within itself a breed. I am creating my own herd and my own breed of cattle if you will. Anyone can do it and create consistency if they follow certain phenotypical guidelines and culling practices.
To your second point: I personally believe the DRC cattle are more potent in the bloodlines of Renegade and Captain Rob. I'm taking nothing away from Marquis because he is obviously a great bull and a piece of the puzzle and also the Sneed cattle, and the others. My point is this. The DRC cattle were pretty much off the grid. They didn't use looks to impress, they used real world needs in the range they lived on. They culled hard and to create very potent traits in their cattle. It doesn't have to be all about line breeding if you are breeding animals that are like kind and have come from programs that have culled hard for generations for the right things.
On your third point: I cannot say too much about these comments because only time will tell which of the bloodlines will calve easier, get bred back, will have good tight udders that hold up till they are over 10 years old, etc. I am in no way bashing any of these people's programs and please don't make it out to seem that way. I am speaking of my experience and that has been that the DRC bloodlines mixed with A&T's breeding decisions have turned out really, really well. It is very hard to find other Shorthorn genetics and programs that match this. I have told these breeders either at dinner, on the phone, or over private messaging these very concerns. They know where I'm coming from and know it's nothing personal. They know what I'm looking for and the difference. Lot's of really upstanding people out there and I'm sure there are Shorthorn bulls out there that will compliment what I am doing without sacrificing anything but it is really difficult to find that individual when I do look around. Let me be real clear about this though... The Apostle bull is not a replacement for my Shorthorn bulls but another part of our overall program. The Shorthorn seedstock end is a very important piece of this puzzle and makes these Apostle calves what they are in my mind. They are very valuable because of the foundation behind them.

 

[RyanChandler]

Define 'like kind.' Outside of them both having four legs, two eyes, two ears, and a tail, they're not phenotypically similiar at all.

 

[JTM]

Define 'like kind.' Outside of them both having four legs, two eyes, two ears, and a tail, they're not phenotypically similiar at all.

As you said function comes before form right? We selected a bull from a program that is aligned with our ideals. We knew exactly what we were getting and I went through over 400 head of bulls at the sale with very good cattlemen all around. Everyone is very transparent about what bulls are what. Ok so here are some things that I looked at. 1. Calving ease/ calf vigor. This was proven to us by sampling Leachman Testify the year before. Testify proved worthy and equal to Renegade on calf vigor. Till then no other bull had come close with C-Rob a close second. 2. Low birth weight 3. Moderate cow mature weight. Apostle's dam weighs around 1100 lbs. 4. Mothering ability/udder quality. We assume this because of the massive amount of rancher type customers and no nonsense type cooperators and their philosophies. 5. The emphasis on carcass quality and yield grades. 6. Culling practices similar to ours.

So when all of these factors begin to take root, over time you will have similar performing animals emerge as the survivors and those animals will not always look identical but will likely have similar features like you mentioned before. Especially if we are talking about moderate mature size, calving ease, low birth weight. When we get into high bw's and larger yearling weights then we will see courser bone, broader shoulders, bigger hocks, bigger hips, larger heads, tighter in the heart. I see more of these dissimilarities with the Shorthorns than I do with these stabilizer bulls I am using.

 

[knabe]

Id like to hear everyone describe "commercial " type cattle

Maybe we could start with yours?