TH is now a commercial problem

[yuppiecowboy]

My neighbor hobby farmer just had a TH calf. I blame myself, as i let him use my tested TH PHA dirty Xray Vision son before I took the bull to the salebarn.I swear I thought his cows were nondescript black hided angus derivitive crap.I specifically told him not to keep calves out of him for breeding stock and I thought I was doing him a favor. Turns out his 5 cows are shithorn based with Improver backgrounds. Yeppers. He got a calf with a belly hernia, and twisted back legs.

Sad part is he stayed up all night trying to keep him alive.

More sad (and disgusting) is the vet said it was just a fluke and not to worry about it. What the shit? In my non cow profession I have to keep up with continuing education as to what direction the wind is blowing. How could a bovine veterinarian NOT know there is"something rotten in denmark" with this stuff? I called the vet today to talk about TH, PHA, CCS and whatever is next and I got a DUHHHH.

This is my fault but it goes to show the genetic issue has seeped into the commercial and hobby man that does not have the opportunity to be educated as we do that frequent these boards (this board).

We owe it to ourselves to test anything we sell as breeding stock, or even if we have a cool Heatseeker or Stinger that might get into the neighbors, and be our own police because the actual keepers of our nations cowherd wont.

THose of us that are cyber connected know whats going on, but there are alot of cow folk that have no idea what the story is. Luckily, TH and PHA are mostly confined to us hobby freak dealers, but the angus CCS is going to have issues. How many commercial guys that have no idea have Precision 1680 blood?

 

[klintdog]

The last estimate I heard is that the Angus Association is estimating there are approx 2,000,000 (that's million) cows that could be potential CCS carriers.

 

[justintime]

That is exactly how I have thought it would be spread into the commercial industry.I know of breeders who think nothing of selling their TH carriers to commercial breeders. One guy told me, " like who is it going to hurt... he is crossbreeding?" My point has been from the start of this defect issue's appearance is that we have no control over what happens in the future after you sell the commercial producer a bull ( or set of carrier females). The guy may like the calves and retain some daughters that are carriers. 10 years from now he may buy another carrier bull or AI some cows to a clubby carrier bull.

I had a TH calf two years ago from a cow that had Deerpark Improver back 9 generations. No other carrier bloodlines were used after that one shot of Improver... which only proves that this defect can be managed.... but you certainly have to study your lessons and know exactly what is in your cows for a long ways back.This was a female that I had purchased and the breeder had said she was TH free by pedigree. He had not researched the pedigree far enough on either the sire or dam. The sire of the TH calf had Improver back 6 generations, and I was aware of that, and thought that the sire was TH free because of the sale catalog statement that this lot was TH free by pedigree. I never assume anything anymore.

 

[red]

Yuppiecowboy: I really beat myself up over selling a PHA heifer to an Angus breeder. This was before the test was available & I tested her for him later. I offered to make it right by selling another heifer a huge discount but never heard back. Note: have tried several times to get in touch w/ him.
I sold another heifer that was also a PHAC but made sure they knew her status & the problems that come w/ it. I'll never sell another carrier, they'll go straight to our feedlot.

Red

 

[DL]

Well I'll be darned - and to think when this was raised as a possible problem several years ago we were called alarmists  (cow) for this reason and because there are still people who don't get it - I guarantee my cattle are TH, PHA and MB free and I do not and will not sell carriers for breeding stock

 

[red]

Well I'll be darned - and to think when this was raised as a possible problem several years ago we were called alarmists  (cow) for this reason and because there are still people who don't get it - I guarantee my cattle are TH, PHA and MB free and I do not and will not sell carriers for breeding stock

Glad to see your post, we missed you! I'm glad there is a test so I don't screw up again. I can't say we're a clean herd but striving towards & not using any more carrier bulls.

 

[aj]

After reading the book "The battle of the bull runts", I think the commercial herds currently have defect genes in them. The one big herford breeder in the book used dwarf carrier sires in their own commercial herford cow herd. I'm sure there are cows out there with the old Herford dwarf gen in them. I had a th defective calf and I took him to the vet in Oakley kansas. They have 5 vets working out of there and they saw what one looked like. I was fairly sure that it was th was wanting people to verify it. I had aweird looking calf a couple years earlier before the defect was published. I am pretty sure it was a defect calf and its dam had no ties to Improver. So I think there was a pedigree screwup in a bull I bought out of Nebraska. The phrase "clean by pedigree" scares the hell out of me. I won't use a bull without testing and I'm not sure I'd buy one without being tested. But the bad thing is if you test for 2 or 5 defects you flat run into some serious money. I guess I would have to really respect the breeder before I bought a non-tested bull. Then I would test him and hope he would honor a money back deal. There are two many loop holes in the clean by pedigree deal. Just for funj how many test are out there now.th,pha ccs. Is that all. I think if the Angus developed a fawn calf or dwarfism test It might be eye opening. To me clean by pedigree if a iffy deal but I can see its use to save money on testing.

 

[aj]

DL....you are back! I think I love you! Dang its good to read your voice again! ;D

 

[kanshow]

Hello DL!!!

I think there are a lot of defects in commercial herds and for the most part, they never cause any problems..   The reason is that a lot of the commercial guys go for unrelated bulls (or different breed bulls) each time they replace a set of bulls.   Maximum heterosis.

Oops hit the button too soon.  I wanted to add that most of the carrier cattle got out in the commercial herds before the tests were available.  The commercial guy is not going to spend the $$ testing all his cows, he's just going to loose the calf & then that cow will go to town because she has no calf to raise.  So is this problem eventually self eliminating???  I don't know.  I agree that we should not be selling carrier breeding stock to commercial people. 

 

[olsun]

I attended several bred heifer sales this winter. The breeder at one of these sales tested everything. I can recall at least 3 examples of heifers that were positive carriers. These heifers did not show any ancestors in the sale catalog pedigrees that would indicate a problem. Made me wonder where the defect came from. Also made me wonder how many clean pedigrees have something unrecorded that we don't know about. There really is little justification for using known carriers, even when well managed.JMO

 

[showcattlegal]

We send ours to the sale barn, but I can't help if someone buys them there. I don't think I should have to tell them there something wrong either. At a sale barn you buy at your own risk.

 

[aj]

The bad thing is the defect is forever for a million years unless you eliminate it. Its always floating around out there.

 

[CAB]

  It will always be "floating around" out there. The thing that I find the most interesting and yet puzzling is the #s that we all have been told as far as % of chances of having potential carriers. In the scenario that JIT put up, 9 generations deep on the maternal side & 6 generations deep on the paternal side, what are the real odds. They just almost can't be what we are being told. Knabe what are the odds of getting a TH calf that far removed according to the #s that we have been told for the last while please.? Thanks, Brent

 

[CAB]

  Oh, BTW, DL, have you been lurking? LOL. Great to see you pipe in on this one!!!
  YB, you can't beat yourself up too bad. You told him, do not keep heifers out of the bull. JMO.
  I would also sell carriers @ the barn, with the exception, that I would have to tell the operator of the barn the scoop on the heifers. Brent

 

[red]

  It will always be "floating around" out there. The thing that I find the most interesting and yet puzzling is the #s that we all have been told as far as % of chances of having potential carriers. In the scenario that JIT put up, 9 generations deep on the maternal side & 6 generations deep on the paternal side, what are the real odds. They just almost can't be what we are being told. Knabe what are the odds of getting a TH calf that far removed according to the #s that we have been told for the last while please.? Thanks, Brent

CAB- as long as there is a carrier being bred & passing the defect along you'll have it in the genetic pool. Look at how far back Telos & DL looked at old fullblood bulls that might have started it. Telos- you can probably tell us where you dead ended at.

Red

 

[r.n.reed]

I wonder if Shorthorn breeders should begin thinking about a CCS test as part of the Shorthorn plus registry!

 

[DL]

Just as an aside - the purported origin of marble bone in the Red Angus is a 1900 model balck Angus bull.So these things lurk until there is sufficient prevalence in the population to create a problem and sufficient concern and awareness among breeders to consider the possibility that the dead calf has a genetic disorder.

In regards to PHA - we tested back as far as we could to Dalton and Paramount, don't know who was the origin of the mutation beyond that. TH traces to  Improver, but was he the origin?. For any cross bred cattle with Angus there could be the consern for AM, hydro and FCS - a plethora of recessive defects

it may only be a vacation, not a destination ;D

 

[oakbar]

All genetic defects will eventually show up in commercial cattle if the concentration is high enough of that particular gene.  Its like having two bowls of marbles and picking one out of each to represent a mating.  If there is one black marble in each bowl and you make your picks enough times you will eventually end up with two black marbles in your hand.  Obviously, the more black marbles in each bowl the greater the chance of ending up with one from each bowl.  Genes work the same way,  if there is only few carriers in a large number cattle, there is much less probability that the problem will ever surface.  It can, but it probably won't.  As the numbers of carriers increases the chances get higher as well for the problem to manifest itself.  When you don't know the gene is there it becomes a surprise versus a calculated risk.  There are most likely troublesome genes floating around in any population of cattle---we just don't know they're there until we concentrate the genetics enough for it to be demonstrated.

I would like to see breeders tell you which parents, grandparents, etc. tested clean for the problematic genes so you wouldn't have to wonder what "free by parentage" or "free by pedigree" means.

Now, I've lost all my marbles so I better quit talking!!!

 

[doc-sun]

a test now seems appropriate to reveal bad genes to future spouses no matter what the cost

 

[CAB]

  The 1st thought that went through my mind when I read MYT's post about the 2,000,000 cows was, how long will it take for the PPL that bred those lines will think that they are far enough back in the pedigree to go back & "line breed" them. If you think about it that way the time frame of discovery is on track.