This will be an interesting Fall to see results of the Angus Production Sales!

Help Support Steer Planet:

RSC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,998
Location
Shelby, NE
With the Curly Calf Syndrome being Public,  I was going through the many catelogs that came with my Journal,  there are several well known Production sales with
a huge influence of 1680 in the pedigree.  I feel for both sides on this,  with seing several with double bred lots, some breeders had to know.

On the other hand I know how sales can stress you and I feel for the breeders that have catelogs out,  help hired, etc...  What would I do in this case,  a lifes work can be wrecked
by the emotions of this after being reported so soon to the Production sale time.  Will sales get canceled?  Looking through several catelogs that have over 100 hd total and over 75% 1680 influenced.  It's going to be interesting.

RSC
 

aj

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,420
Location
western kansas
It's a heart breaking deal. Surely a test will be available and some great cattle will be salvaged and the line will be usefull(unless like knabe threw out there..are the good carcass cattle carriers and the non-carriers not so good.This would be kinda like the th carriers having the look whereas the non-carriers don't.
 

RSC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,998
Location
Shelby, NE
I was scanning through most of the 10 or so catelogs that came with the Journal,  There are only 1 or 2 that don't have a heavy influence of 1680.  I would think someone at the association new about this for the while and for the good of their breeders could have stepped in and said Hey this is going to become public, you may want to back down on your sale until next year when you can manage this with a test. 

RSC
 

Jill

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
3,551
Location
Gardner, KS
What I find so amazing is the reaction.  When PHA was released prior to the test anyone that happened to have a carrier cow was considered pond scum by the masses on this board, everyone was sure there was a cover up, they should have known they had a carrier etc....  and yet from what I am reading they should have known about this as far back as 2004 and everyone is applauding the AAA for such a speedy release, am I missing something?
As far as cancelling a production sale, families that make their livelihood from that yearly production sale would find it very difficult to just cancel and have no income for the year, those with an outside income may go that route. 
 

Dusty

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,097
I imagine the vast majority of people will still have a sale.  If the cattle are good people will still buy them.  If the prices are down hard and the animals are good people won't let them go until they can test them.  Now we have another defect that a calf will need to be good...  I am looking for a steer that is a carrier for TH, PHA, Monkey mouth, SP, Curly Calf, and horned.  PM me if ya got one.
 

RSC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,998
Location
Shelby, NE
Dusty said:
I imagine the vast majority of people will still have a sale.  If the cattle are good people will still buy them.  If the prices are down hard and the animals are good people won't let them go until they can test them.   Now we have another defect that a calf will need to be good...  I am looking for a steer that is a carrier for TH, PHA, Monkey mouth, SP, Curly Calf, and horned.  PM me if ya got one.
Dusty, I have one but theres good news.  The boys and I put together a special potion we found out about on the Planet and his hair is now Straight!  (lol)

RSC
 

chambero

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
It also goes back to the fact that the vast majority of cattle that anyone raises - including the big Angus breeders - wind up at the feedlot.  And the vast majority of buyers at these sales are just looking for good cattle.  They aren't linebreeding, or even trying to register offspring.  A lot of them are crossbreeding Angus cows with something else.

It may knock them down in price on their high sellers (which are fake prices as often as not anyway), but if it puts anyone out of business it will be because they were on the precipice anyway.

I love Angus cattle, but more than a few Angus breeders are crazy.  Last year a big one (or at least one with a lot of high dollar cattle) in our area "dispersed".  The Angus Association ran their sale.  We have a lot of cattle ranchers in our area that were interested in their yearling bulls, but didn't wanted to pay commercial bull prices for them.  The Angus Association told them to castrate the vast majority of them so the few they sold as bulls would bring more money.  Short story is the breeder lost $300 or $400 per head on a lot of bulls to try to make more money on their top end.  The buyers interested in those cheaper bulls were never going to bother with the top end to begin with, so they just lost that much revenue.  

Common sense hasn't ever been a big player in a lot of these sales, but cattlemen raising Angus should still be just fine.  The ones playing games may have things blow up on them.
 

chambero

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
So if they have this tracked back to one individual for now, is this another example of causing ourselves way too much trouble by too much linebreeding, ET, etc?
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
no.  it's by not actually linebreeding in the first place.

close matings by limiting options based only on phenotype is not linebreeding.

linebreeding is understanding you will maximize the exposure of BOTH defects and positive traits in as few generations as possible as opposed to just one.

linebreeding is the concept of maximizing homozygosity so the probability of passing on the trait of interest is 100%, even though the offspring may be hetero.

linebreeding is maximizing homozygosity in your herd for traits of interest so the offspring are homozygous for traits of interest.

line breeding is mating families that are homozygous for different traits, don't have the other family's traits, and crossing these lines and doing the above.

this practice as semi routine in herefords and angus fell by the wayside after the 50's.  it's usually ridiculed today as we only focus on the negative aspects of it revealing bad traits, or that it's some novelty, or that it takes out hybrid vigor in the sale animal.......

linebreeding requires more losses up front to weed out the homo negative for trait of interest and the hetero's.
 

DLD

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
1,539
Location
sw Oklahoma
I think it's pretty ironic, too, that the general trend seems to be to feel sorry for these Angus breeders, while it was to despise the Shorthorn, MA, and clubbie breeders who had to deal with similiar issues.  Undoubtedly many of these breeders, and the association have known something was wrong for awhile.  I don't wish them any ill will, but I do have to appreciate the irony that I know quite a few Angus people that thought the TH and PHA issues were pretty funny.

I have a good friend that's an Angus breeder who has a production sale coming up.  He's got lots of 1680 influence in his herd, and lots in the catalog for his upcoming sale -  one of his feature lots is, in fact, an own daughter of 1680.  He's not sleeping well.  He's a good guy, and I wish him all the best, but he keeps asking me what I think's going to happen now, and I can't deny that I think it's gonna at least sting for awhile.  I'm not as concerned about this female sale as I am next spring's bull sale, especially if there's not a test by then.  At least buying females out of the production sales you know what you're getting,  unlike pretty much any set of black cows that comes through a sale barn.

Assuming it's a simple recessive gene, and considering how many cattle there are out there with that lineage, I'm not sure that any of us with black cattle are gonna be completely safe from this one. Purebred Maines, Simmys, Limis or whatever are prob'ly relatively safe. Maybe...
 

RSC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,998
Location
Shelby, NE
DLD said:
I think it's pretty ironic, too, that the general trend seems to be to feel sorry for these Angus breeders, while it was to despise the Shorthorn, MA, and clubbie breeders who had to deal with similiar issues.  Undoubtedly many of these breeders, and the association have known something was wrong for awhile.  I don't wish them any ill will, but I do have to appreciate the irony that I know quite a few Angus people that thought the TH and PHA issues were pretty funny.

I have a good friend that's an Angus breeder who has a production sale coming up.  He's got lots of 1680 influence in his herd, and lots in the catalog for his upcoming sale -  one of his feature lots is, in fact, an own daughter of 1680.  He's not sleeping well.  He's a good guy, and I wish him all the best, but he keeps asking me what I think's going to happen now, and I can't deny that I think it's gonna at least sting for awhile.  I'm not as concerned about this female sale as I am next spring's bull sale, especially if there's not a test by then.  At least buying females out of the production sales you know what you're getting,  unlike pretty much any set of black cows that comes through a sale barn.

Assuming it's a simple recessive gene, and considering how many cattle there are out there with that lineage, I'm not sure that any of us with black cattle are gonna be completely safe from this one. Purebred Maines, Simmys, Limis or whatever are prob'ly relatively safe. Maybe...

I am like you I do feel sorry for those in the middle of this.  However,  there are many that laughed and said "Typical Clubby Genetics",  "You don't see that in the Business breed"

Who knows, now is maybe the time to buy one of the top Angus donors for a bunch less money,  If she's positive test all her calves and only sell the clean ones.  The only problem I have is the perception of these Genetics a few years down the road in the mind of a commercial cowman.  Will a majority of the commercial man be educated enough in this subject and have no problem buying a 1680 pedigree that is tested clean or will many reguardless of the tests just decide to not buy anthing with 1680 in the pedigree.

Everyone keeps pointing to the Association that they need to handle this right with Registrations and other issues.  I think it's bigger than that,  I think they need to spend time and money educationing the commercial man to understand how they are taking care of this.

JMO

RSC
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
RSC said:
Will a majority of the commercial man be educated enough in this subject and have no problem buying a 1680 pedigree that is tested clean or will many reguardless of the tests just decide to not buy anthing with 1680 in the pedigree.

non-educated, either by book or smarts are weeded out no matter the issue.

 

Dusty

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,097
It was funny, a couple months ago I asked a large animal vet that I have known all my life if had any experience with a cow that a PHA calf in her.  His response was:  What's PHA?  I explained it to him and he said he had never seen one.  After I got done talking with him I was left wondering how he had never even heard of it being a cow vet.  I guess I just figured there was a newsletter or something that vets got that would have mentioned the issue??????

Anyways what exactly is Curly Calf.  I've never seen one to my knowledge....   I think it will be like the other genetic defects in that it will be more of an issue with the purebred breeders than the striclty commercial guys.  I have yet to speak with a strictly commercial cowman that has had a TH calf.  I realize there is ton of angus based commerical cows and very little shorthorn blood in commerical herds so there is a lot greater chance for curly calf to affect the commercial industry.  I still think birthweight, breeches etc will kill more baby calves than a genetic defect will in the commercial industry.
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Dusty said:
It was funny, a couple months ago I asked a large animal vet that I have known all my life if had any experience with a cow that a PHA calf in her.  His response was:  What's PHA?  I explained it to him and he said he had never seen one.  After I got done talking with him I was left wondering how he had never even heard of it being a cow vet.  I guess I just figured there was a newsletter or something that vets got that would have mentioned the issue??????

Either you LA vet doesn't belong to the AABP or if he does he doesn't read the list serve - if he did he would know about TH, PHA, FCS, CCS et al. The information is out there - but it doesn't appear by osmosis - people, including cow vets, need to be responsible for their own education and continued learning - if you want to stay current you need to put in the time and effort - cyber space cannot penetrate a closed mind

PS Dusty - I sure hope you took the opportunity to educate the large animal vet you have known all your life  - a classic teachable moment
 

kanshow

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
2,660
Location
Kansas
I bet a lot of the commercial cattle producers don't keep track of registration papers & if multiple bulls run with the cows, they have no way of knowing how many calves they have from that line. 

My take on this one is that it will be manageable once there is a test available.  Don't panic and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.    I would not be too hasty in getting rid of my carrier cows either - especially if they bring a lot of other attributes to the table. 
 

chambero

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
Dusty said:
It was funny, a couple months ago I asked a large animal vet that I have known all my life if had any experience with a cow that a PHA calf in her.  His response was:  What's PHA?  I explained it to him and he said he had never seen one.  After I got done talking with him I was left wondering how he had never even heard of it being a cow vet.  I guess I just figured there was a newsletter or something that vets got that would have mentioned the issue??????

Anyways what exactly is Curly Calf.  I've never seen one to my knowledge....   I think it will be like the other genetic defects in that it will be more of an issue with the purebred breeders than the striclty commercial guys.  I have yet to speak with a strictly commercial cowman that has had a TH calf.  I realize there is ton of angus based commerical cows and very little shorthorn blood in commerical herds so there is a lot greater chance for curly calf to affect the commercial industry.  I still think birthweight, breeches etc will kill more baby calves than a genetic defect will in the commercial industry.

Most commercial cattlemen would be thrilled beyond belief with a 90% calf crop.  I wonder how many of these types of defects we will find in all breeds in the coming years now that we have the science readily available to do it.  They've probably always been there and just been a fraction of that 10% loss you get from calving difficulty, predators, respiratory diseases, and on and on.  It's still great that we can identify and control these things, but 5 years from now most commercial Angus ranchers still won't be able to tell you what Curly Calf syndrome is. 
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Jill said:
What I find so amazing is the reaction.  When PHA was released prior to the test anyone that happened to have a carrier cow was considered pond scum by the masses on this board, everyone was sure there was a cover up, they should have known they had a carrier etc....  and yet from what I am reading they should have known about this as far back as 2004 and everyone is applauding the AAA for such a speedy release, am I missing something?
As far as cancelling a production sale, families that make their livelihood from that yearly production sale would find it very difficult to just cancel and have no income for the year, those with an outside income may go that route. 

Jill - the difference I see is that the AAA not only provided information about Curly Calf but also used pedigree analysis to identify GAR Precision 1680 as the likely carrier of the recessive defect. Since most reported calves have 1680 on both sides of the pedigree his is powerful information that can aid in breeding decisions prior to development of the test.

When the AMAA sent out a letter about PHA - Oct of 05 I think, but it is not dated, it only described the defect.It wasn't until after the test was available that the AMAA (and the ASA) provided names of carrier bulls - that is the big difference I see
 

chambero

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
I think everyone learned a lot about how these defects work from the first go-rounds with TH and PHA.  I'd imagine each association would have reacted similarly if order of defect discpvery was flipped.  Unfortunately, this is almost old hat by now.  Everyone has figured out how the process works with Dr. Beever tracking the defects down.  He looks to have no shortage of work for the forseeable future.
 
Top