What do ya think about this???

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DL

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Just got the Sullivan's catalog - they state the following under "Flushes and DNA"

"Sullivan Ranch also reserves one flush of eight or more grade 1 or 2 embryos at our expense on all females selling. Sullivan Ranch retains at our expense the opportunity to obtain DNA cell line for cloning purposes on all cattle selling in this sale"

How does that flip your minnow???
 

Doc

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DL, This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I've stated on here before that there is no way I would do that. To me you buy that "factory" bull or female & develop & promote it so that hopefully people will come to you to buy those genetics. After you've done all that & maybe have that goose that is laying the golden egg then all of a sudden Sullivan wants their copy of your golden goose. Well guess who most people will buy those genetics from, the one that will have Sull as a prefix. I don't mind retaining a embryo interest or semen interest. I will now step down from the pulpit. ;D
 

dori36

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DL said:
Just got the Sullivan's catalog - they state the following under "Flushes and DNA"

"Sullivan Ranch also reserves one flush of eight or more grade 1 or 2 embryos at our expense on all females selling. Sullivan Ranch retains at our expense the opportunity to obtain DNA cell line for cloning purposes on all cattle selling in this sale"

How does that flip your minnow???

Looks like the "wave of the future"  is the "wave of today"!
 

Jill

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I think that is called having your cake and eating it to, don't mind the retained flush option, no interest in cattle with retained DNA interest.
 

Show Heifer

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I'm kinda finicky on this....I DON"T LIKE IT AT ALL. IN FACT I WON"T BUY INTO THAT, NOR WILL I SPEND MY MONEY SO SOMEONE ELSE CAN PROFIT.

Of course, I also don't like: "Retaining semen interest" "Retaining semen for in herd use only" "Selling 50%" "Selling just the eating end" "Selling just enough to pay the banker" "Retaining enough to where if she/he ever amounts to anything, I get money before you, the owner." Or any variation of the previous.

When I buy an animal....I WANT THE WHOLE THING. DON"T WANT TO SHARE. DON"T WANT TO "DISCUSS" THINGS.

Call me independent!!!
 

CPL

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I hope this doesn't form into a habit for all purebred cattle sales.
 

Show Dad

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If they want part then sell only part ownership.

As for me, they could retain the right but only be able to exercise it at a cost equivalent to what I paid them for the heifer.  That would be a great incentive for me to show and promote the animal.
 

Doc

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Show Dad said:
If they want part then sell only part ownership.

As for me, they could retain the right but only be able to exercise it at a cost equivalent to what I paid them for the heifer.  That would be a great incentive for me to show and promote the animal.

Show Dad, I hadn't thought about that. Now I might be interested in going that route. Good Idea!! (clapping)
 

knabe

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DL said:
Just got the Sullivan's catalog - they state the following under "Flushes and DNA"

"Sullivan Ranch also reserves one flush of eight or more grade 1 or 2 embryos at our expense on all females selling. Sullivan Ranch retains at our expense the opportunity to obtain DNA cell line for cloning purposes on all cattle selling in this sale"

How does that flip your minnow???

i think there should be a limit on it, like 2 years or something.  as a purchaser, if i go to all the expense and trouble of marketing and covering costs, and they can just waltz in at anytime up until death, i'm not really keen on that.  there needs to be limits.  a balance will come.  at this moment in time, there is simply no need for this policy at least for maines as the PHAF carrier lines will be replaced with something else as it is determined those lines are unsustainable on the same scale as they have been in the past.  something will come along, I GUARANTEE it.  I look forward with glee that an opportunity has opened for PHAF genetics from other sources to develope.  that said, i'm not dissing the catalog, but won't put myself in a position of weakness.

perhaps if this practice continues, buyers should hold sales (purchases?) with purchasing requirements.  hmm.
 

SWMO

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Agree with the cake and eat it too.

I can understand keeping 1/2 interest in one or two of the outstanding females in a sale  But on all of them.  It seems a little arrogant to me.  I am picky about who I want to be in partnership with and this sounds alot like they are wanting to be a partner in every female they sell without any of the expense.
 

AAOK

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If I were attending Sullivan's sale as a buyer, I would view a purchase with these restrictions as more of a lease contract, and would expect the price to be in accordance with my term of lease.  I realize such a suggestion is not possible, therefore I would never expect to attend such an event.  If the buyers at this upcoming sale "Only Had a Brain", there would be no bids that day.   
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I have retained semen interests in bulls (in herd use only), reserved the rights to a future flush (at the buyers convienience and my expence), and have sold flush interests in proven donor cows, but that was on specific animals - not any animal that I have ever raised. They need to get a reality check - just because you have had some success in the show ring doesn't mean everything one that you raise is or ever will be a great one. If you don't know your cattle that you're are selling any better than that, maybe that's an admition that you don't know your own cattle.
 

knabe

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cutting horse people are starting to do this type of arrangement.  it's a way of adding value to the seller earlier and with less expense than if they were retained. plus you don't have to mess with close placings.  since phenotype isn't fixed, ie through linebreeding, risk from that perspective is reduced as well as almost no one bothers with line breeding as it's up front culling cost is too high for people to mess with.  seems like in general, it's hard to separate the hybrid vigor from fixing phenotype that is deliverable.  hybrids to hybrids don't keep adding hybrididity at the same level.  if it did, cows would be jumping over the moon.

 
 

DL

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ROAD WARRIOR said:
I have retained semen interests in bulls (in herd use only), reserved the rights to a future flush (at the buyers convienience and my expence), and have sold flush interests in proven donor cows, but that was on specific animals - not any animal that I have ever raised. They need to get a reality check - just because you have had some success in the show ring doesn't mean everything one that you raise is or ever will be a great one. If you don't know your cattle that you're are selling any better than that, maybe that's an admition that you don't know your own cattle.

I sure have to agree with most of what you guys said but I think RW (AKA the Armed Gorilla) hit the nail on the head - they don't know their cattle - this is a huge fishing trip - we want to retain a little chunk of everything we sell because we haven't the foggiest what could be really good. IMHO true breeders know what their best genetics are and may want to retain the right to flush or semen interest on some of their best genetics. That seems rational and gives the buyer the option to not buy those animals which in essence makes you a partner with someone who could turn out to be at best a SOB and and worst the partner from hell (SRU - can we say hell or should I have said he**??) - there is of course the remote possibility that it could work out well for everyone.

I find it incredibly arrogant that the sellers think it is OK that after I buy the animal they have the right to clone it - if I spend my money on you cattle I own every single strand of DNA - if you ain't selling every single strand of DNA then I ain't buying!
 

Show Heifer

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Funny you should mention the BUYER/BIDDER....I have attended more than one sale with a "ace in my pocket."  I called the breeder ahead of the sale and "made deals", regarding genetics, future rights or lack thereof, etc.

I guess instead of sitting and just "taking it", I decided it was MY money, MY decision, so it was MY terms or nothing!
 

knabe

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I knew it!  great job show heifer!  excellent negotiating skills.  capitalism at work.  an agreement when both the seller and buyer are happy rather than just the seller.  have you ever got that in writing?
 

Show Heifer

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I guess I didn't think it was that big of deal. I "negotiate" a lot and when it comes to my money, it is surpising what I can accomplish!!
"In writing"...kinda....I don't sign a check until I am happy. I guess that is "in writing". ::)

Anyway...was thinking of going to Sullivans sale, but that statement was strike two. Strike one being no DNA results.
Strike three being NOTHING mentioned of PHA/TH.  Guess that mean I get to work that day, and make money for myself instead of buying cattle and working for someone else!!
 

justme

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I usually don't like to comment on these...but I was shocked that there are no test results or mention of them in the catalog.  I have been finding more and more of Craig Reiter's sale catalogs lack that all too important information.  With the kind of money Sullivan's get out of there cattle, I really thought there would be test results ecspecially since alot of donors.

Oh well, for once I'm like you show heifer...I'm staying home making money for myself.
 

DL

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justme said:
I usually don't like to comment on these...but I was shocked that there are no test results or mention of them in the catalog.  I have been finding more and more of Craig Reiter's sale catalogs lack that all too important information.  With the kind of money Sullivan's get out of there cattle, I really thought there would be test results ecspecially since alot of donors.

Oh well, for once I'm like you show heifer...I'm staying home making money for myself.

The very first sale to REQUIRE PHA and TH testing on ALL Maine cattle was the 2007 Ohio Beef Expo. This was a decision made by the Expo committee and supported by the sale manager CRAIG REITER

As a sale manager you CANNOT force people to do the right thing in regards to testing - I would tend to look more at the sellers and not the managers - if the sellers don't think it is important IT WILL NOT HAPPEN....

There is nothing about that sale that could entice me to buy - nothing is tested, you don't own the DNA, and they use the fishing approach to identify cows to flush - happy trout!

 

Jill

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This (IMO) is a family that has industry wide respect, and has always set the standard for class acts,  I guess to me it is more disappointing than anything.  While most of us wouldn't spend money on those conditions the other Sullivan Sale Maternal Legends had the same comments and it sure didn't seem to hurt prices any.

The DNA thing does bring up an interesting question, if Dan (or whoever) went through the herd right now and took a punch from each cow, while he owns the cow and then sells them next week, can he legally produce a clone, he owned it when the sample was taken but doesn't own it now?  DNA has a lot of variables because of the technology that is avaliable that really need to addressed very quickly.
 
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