what is th, pha,ds cattle trait?

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ska

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what is PHA,TH,DS? and if i breed a TH carrying bull to a TH carrying cow what do i get? can somebody please break this down.i would like a very very broken-down explanation.

thanks all!
 

knabe

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you get 1/4 of offspring death.

search the terms on this site.

then, research breeding principles a little bit, dominant, recessive, lethal etc.

if you ignore the above, at least have a good relationship with a vet, be ready to have a c-section, know how to use a shovel and or back hoe.

if you do the above, it will be worth more than a very very broken down explanation. it will help you in other areas of breeding.

you need more than a very very good explanation.
 

Medium Rare

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The first two were very expensive lessons learned by those of us who played the game before the tests were readily available.

I'd suggest not even considering using a carrier on a carrier and even avoid mixing a PHA carrier with a DS carrier as well. While a ds calf isn't death, like TH and PHA can be, it's often still a cripple that easily could have been avoided. A lot of people ignore DS as it generally doesn't display without the help of PHA, but I'm guessing most of them have never seen a pen with several ds affected calves in it. There are other defects at play as well. They're just not as highly advertised as these three.

If you do some searching on here. you'll probably find more reading on the subject than you can absorb in a week.
 

knabe

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seen in person TH calves.  open skull caps and more. not pretty.


PHA even worse.


But those carrier bulls keep on selling.
 

ska

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can you please send a link where i can learn about it?
 

mark tenenbaum

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I got lost slightly-if PHA is a recessive form of DS (if that PHA Carrier is DS fee) then mated to a Ds carrier - the last link seems to be a vague explanation-The PHA gene basically activates the other the DS gene where otherwise it may not have done so-almost like a self reproduction-thereby creating DS from a ds free PHA dirty animal or something along those lines. It appears  25% probable one will be in infected and appear normal,25% be non infected, or 25% worse as in somewhat crippled or a trainwreck-Please fill me in -I am not particularly scientific O0
 

mark tenenbaum

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Medium Rare said:
The first two were very expensive lessons learned by those of us who played the game before the tests were readily available.

I'd suggest not even considering using a carrier on a carrier and even avoid mixing a PHA carrier with a DS carrier as well. While a ds calf isn't death, like TH and PHA can be, it's often still a cripple that easily could have been avoided. A lot of people ignore DS as it generally doesn't display without the help of PHA, but I'm guessing most of them have never seen a pen with several ds affected calves in it. There are other defects at play as well. They're just not as highly advertised as these three.

If you do some searching on here. you'll probably find more reading on the subject than you can absorb in a week.//// Is it proven that a PHA carrier that is tested DS free carries the same probablity of DS outcome on another DS animal as a DS on a DS?
 

Medium Rare

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mark tenenbaum said:
Is it proven that a PHA carrier that is tested DS free carries the same probablity of DS outcome on another DS animal as a DS on a DS?

I'd assume the answer would have to be no it's not proven, but there could be some research out there pinning the actual odds down that I don't know about. I'm sure it was difficult to pin down what was going on when some animals don't display at all and some had to be butchered before 800lbs. No one tested the steers that looked normal and the steers that were crippled were just dumped as calves and everyone moved on.

As far as I know, PHA is the key to really unlocking the DS defect. There are several homo DS animals out there that do not display at all. JPJ has been line bred to over and over again in multiple herds, who have never even seen a DS animal, to the point they don't even believe it exists or the science is wrong. Assuming the owner trusts them well enough to let them see the calves, all they'd have to do is visit some herds known to have PHA in them to see some DS affected animals.
 

mark tenenbaum

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We have a DS cow-Whos pretty old-She had 2 calves by AHL Lucky Ralph who is PHA and certainly DS-Both were fine-She had a calf by Proud Jazz-it was fine I had a TTT Apollo heifer who was nice (Apollo was sired by Eskimo Joe-PHA prob DS) From a JR Walker cow(hes Th and DS) This was all before DS came to the forefront-Im am not advocating carrier on carrier-I just dont understand if an animal is DS free-that it can sire DS-PHA or not-Because alot of DS animals do not come from PHA backgrounds-just Ds O0
 

aj

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I thought that the PHA deal was an additive factor only. It only made the DS leg defect more severe.......when two DS carriers were matched and a resulting defect occured. I don't think PHA is the same as DS.
 

mark tenenbaum

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aj said:
I thought that the PHA deal was an additive factor only. It only made the DS leg defect more severe.......when two DS carriers were matched and a resulting defect occured. I don't think PHA is the same as DS.//// Thats the qurstion O0
 

aj

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The way I understand it......and I might be wrong..... . A DS carrier bred to a DS carrier......may produce a DS defective calf...that is a very minimal defect. In fact it can almost be non noticeable. BUT if one of the parents is also a PHA carrier......the DS defective calf has a fairly severe defect.
 

Dale

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DS--from ASA website  Be sure to pay attention to the last sentence.

Digital Subluxation (DS) is not a lethal condition from a genetic inheritance standpoint. Animals known as homozygotes are cattle that carry two copies of the undesirable gene. Homozygotes of DS, referred to as “DSH” in the registry. Most cattle that are DSH will show some outward signs of the genetic condition. In this case, the condition is a malformation of the rear pastern or pasterns (ankle area) of the animal. The important aspect of DSH is to understand that ALL progeny of DS Homozygotes will be at least carriers of the condition. Carriers of the DS condition, known as DSC in the registry, also need to be handled differently when mating decisions are made. Though the original mutations happened in completely separate populations, the DS condition sits on the same chromosome as Pulmonary Hyperplasia with Anasarca (PHA). It appears that the presence of a PHA Carrier can impact the phenotype (physical appearance) of a DS Carrier. In other words, if you mate a PHAC to a DSC and the unfavorable copy of both genes is passed on, the resulting calf will likely have deformed rear limbs below the hock.
 

Dale

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We all need to be life-long learners.  One reason we watch DS so much is that our former sire JJC Wild Side was a DS carrier.  Since we see lots of merit in his daughters, we have tested around it and retain the worthy clean ones as breeding stock.  Fortunately, the PHA carriers tend to be cattle that are not needed in our program, and it would make me very uncomfortable to have deformed calves born here.

With the ever so slight chance that in the commercial herd there is PHA, Shorthorn breeders must not sell DS carriers to them.  Another of the great British breeds reportedly has sold plenty of bulls carrying defects into commercial cow herds and their chickens are coming home to roost.  Nobody wants open cows or train wrecks at birthing time.  In some areas now there are many red or white bulls running with cows that had black bulls exclusively a few years ago.  Some of the red bulls now being used in the Plains states may be the result of Red Angus keeping a closer eye on convenience traits than the black ones?  Do you see this A.J.?  I hope this does not hijack your thread. 
 
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