What Red Angus bulls would be beneficial to starting a Durham Red program?

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shortyjock89

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With all this talk of Cherokee Canyon and his troubles, I was just wanting to ask all the great Red Angus breeders on here what RA bulls would work in a start-up Durham Red program? The cows would come from a variety of backgrounds: Trump influence, IWF Magic, Waukaru, and the TH free Double Stuff lines.  Any help? We would try to market the calves as show calves and replacement heifers.  I'm interested in the possibility of selling commercial-type bulls out of the Waukaru x RA cross, but we're aiming for functional show calves.  Thanks in advance for any responses.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Hmmm.....I am not really very familiar with short horn pedigrees - most of what I know about them I have learned here so I will answer from the R A side of things. Staying with AI stud bulls that are commercialy available to the public, I would say my first pick would probably be the Fine Line Mulberry bull from Brylors. The Bodacious lines have worked well for me as well. There are several lesser known bull out there that would work just as well I'm sure. The list of bulls I wouldn't use might be longer than the list of bulls that I would.
 

Show Dad

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SJ89 - I'm not a great RA guy, but here's my opinion anyway.

I have seen daughters that show well out of OHRR DAKOTA COPPER 29K  RAAA#709597. Some don't like the top side of his pedigree but the bottom is good. I like 5L Norseman King as a sleeper but my son has a Fine Line Mulberry heifer that is coming along great. My other son has a Dr Phil heifer more moderate in her frame but well put together.  If you can find some Rambo 502 semen or one of his many sons or grandsons (FL Mulberry) you will get good females from him. RW's suggestion of Bodacious is a great one.

As for steers Rambo's are thick tubes but an Advancer steer is thick and deep bodied as well with a different look. Some like Becton's Lancer (not me) but the Cherokee Canyon & Major League steers can be good ones too (watch the feet though).  There are a few bulls from the von Forell herd I would like to see offspring from.

Keep in mind that anything RA will be more functional than clubby looking. I also would get that list of non-use bulls from RW.
 

justintime

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The best Red Angus bull I have seen to date is Red Ter-Ron Fully Loaded 580R who was Grand Champion at the 07 Agribition show for Six Mile Red Angus. He was also Supreme over all Breeds. This bull was purchased by Six Mile for $70,000 in the Red Roundup and he certainly looks like he was well worth the money. I think they are planning to take him to Denver so if you are there, watch for him. I beleive semen from Fully Loaded will be available in the US but not in Canada.

Bryor's Mulberry bull is also an excellent bull, and worth consideration. The few offspring I have seen look good. My personal opnion is that Fully Loaded is the best bull, but time will tell which is the best breeding sire.
 

Doc

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ROAD WARRIOR said:
Hmmm.....I am not really very familiar with short horn pedigrees - most of what I know about them I have learned here so I will answer from the R A side of things. Staying with AI stud bulls that are commercialy available to the public, I would say my first pick would probably be the Fine Line Mulberry bull from Brylors. The Bodacious lines have worked well for me as well. There are several lesser known bull out there that would work just as well I'm sure. The list of bulls I wouldn't use might be longer than the list of bulls that I would.
RW, I'm going to be the devils' advocate here & ask a question. If the list is longer of bulls not to use than use, then why should we as a breed be eager to get into bed with the RA breed ? That was what I was talking about on a different post about that most Shortie people don't know which way to go. If you really have to be in the click to know which bulls to use, then this program is going to be a disaster. JMO ;D
 

aj

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The dakota copper bull listed above is a abs bull I noticed.What is you guys opionion on the Lancer 442 bull at abs. What are the udders like? What are his pluses and minus's? I know he might not be really showy but I think he might work well on those 1600 pound shorthorn cows that need downsized. He is only plus 8 which is good for my enviromen. Last I knew he was perfect on dna markers for carcass traits. He gets to weaning weghts fast then quits growing with a moderate yearling epd. He is 3 out of 4 stars for calving ease. 4 out of 4 stars for carcass. He's a calving ease bull yet he is plus 9 on calving ease daughters which I assume is partially good pelvic area. There is not a perfect bull in the world. What are his downfalls? I have 3 grandsons of lancer that I love. What do I need to watch out for in the next mating... thanks in advance.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Doc said:
ROAD WARRIOR said:
Hmmm.....I am not really very familiar with short horn pedigrees - most of what I know about them I have learned here so I will answer from the R A side of things. Staying with AI stud bulls that are commercialy available to the public, I would say my first pick would probably be the Fine Line Mulberry bull from Brylors. The Bodacious lines have worked well for me as well. There are several lesser known bull out there that would work just as well I'm sure. The list of bulls I wouldn't use might be longer than the list of bulls that I would.
RW, I'm going to be the devils' advocate here & ask a question. If the list is longer of bulls not to use than use, then why should we as a breed be eager to get into bed with the RA breed ? That was what I was talking about on a different post about that most Shortie people don't know which way to go. If you really have to be in the click to know which bulls to use, then this program is going to be a disaster. JMO ;D

Many of the promoted bulls available today through the AI companies are not bulls I will consider because they are strictly bred for the number game. As I posted on another post, the former exec. secretary was a strictly numbers man so that was the direction he took the breed. My advise to those of you looking at the Duram Red deal would be to find a reputable breeder, look at their cattle  and if they suit you try and buy semen from them privately. I personally don't buy from any of the US semen companies because their selection is limited and most only deal with one or two of the chosen few breeders. There are alot of good bulls out there that are not promoted.
 

shortyjock89

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Hey, thanks alot for all the responses so far. Where can I see a picture of Mulberry and Fully Loaded. I'm very interested in breeding one of them to a Sonny daughter or a Double Stuff granddaughter to get some good heifers and maybe a bull. What will these bulls do to the framescore? Most of my cows are really moderate, and they probably dont need downsized.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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You can go to Brylor semen sales to see Mulberry. Maybe Agrbition site for picture of fully loaded.
 

shortyjock89

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I couldn't find a pic of Fully Loaded, but I did see Mulberry. He's an awesome looking bull, but that $100/unit will getcha if you want to breed more than one cow. Has anyone tried Brylor Lead Pine? He looks pretty good to me. I like alot of the bulls they have in their index. Very masculine bulls.
 

Show Dad

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Hey Doc not to go over what other post on the Red Durham program have but it seems, IMHO, in short, the benefits are thus. For the RA increased demand for the genetics (semen & bulls mostly). For the SH it would be the shot in the arm for better quality beef.

But to say that a long list of bulls an RA breeder wouldn't use doesn't means a train wreck, is not understanding the typical RA breeder. But maybe rather it is the reason why the genetics are useful.

If you are after commercial feedlot & high grading carcass animals, the RA has them - bar none (just so you know, I do have a dog in this race). Their feet only has to get them to the bunk then the packer. If you want breeding stock then its time to not follow trends (this can be said of any breed). The RA has plenty of great breeding bulls but many of them aren't necessarily in the semen company glossy hand outs. As a tool use the stayability and calving ease EPD's. I believe you will be happy with the results of using RA bulls on your Shorty cows.
 

shortyjock89

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Wow..the Six Mile crew sure can show some cattle for it not  being a big part of their program. Fully Loaded is really massive and super long bodied.  Very impressive bull and program.
 

TPX

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Just a brief story on fully loaded bull.  Six Mile bought him as a calf from ter-ron at there bull sale and he cst them $50, 000 for half interest, they showed him last year and then again this year and along with ter-ron they sold a half interest at red roundup for $70, 000 to a group of people.  He then went on to win edmonton and regina and then the supreme at regina also.  Hes a good bull with that dark red color and alot of natural muscle but the best thing about him were the calves that six mile and ter-ron had there with him they all had the same pattern and all had alot of power.  I beleive that they will be selling semen in the states and not in canada but I dont think that he will be going to denver anymore b/c of the branding rules and tatoo stuff that everyone has to do. 
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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TPX - do you know if they will be selling semen privately or through a semen distributor? I figured Brylor would surely make a run at the semen sales.
 

Show Dad

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One bull that deserves an honorable mention is Cooley's Mojito #1026932. I and others who have seen stock out of this bull are impressed that the offspring are better than the sire. Now mind you this is based just on a few head but it might be what you are looking for.
 

jimmyski

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aj said:
The dakota copper bull listed above is a abs bull I noticed.What is you guys opionion on the Lancer 442 bull at abs. What are the udders like? What are his pluses and minus's? I know he might not be really showy but I think he might work well on those 1600 pound shorthorn cows that need downsized. He is only plus 8 which is good for my enviromen. Last I knew he was perfect on dna markers for carcass traits. He gets to weaning weghts fast then quits growing with a moderate yearling epd. He is 3 out of 4 stars for calving ease. 4 out of 4 stars for carcass. He's a calving ease bull yet he is plus 9 on calving ease daughters which I assume is partially good pelvic area. There is not a perfect bull in the world. What are his downfalls? I have 3 grandsons of lancer that I love. What do I need to watch out for in the next mating... thanks in advance.

aj,
I'll try to answer your question about Lancer the best I can. We had our first set of Lancer granddaughters calve this last spring. I really love them. They are moderate framed, easy keeping, and sound. The picture doesn't do him justice. I heard a story that he was in the feedlot for almost 2 years before anyone found him. (Again this is a just a rumor but could explain a little bit of the way his feet look in his picture.). I have heard of udder problems with Lancer's before, but that is something that we don't tolerate out of our cows, so I'm sure that could have something to do with why the grand daughters also don't have any problems. Like the majority of bulls that anyone uses, you might have to be somewhat selective on the cows that you use him on. His offspring simply work well in our environment in eastern Colorado.

A bull that I might recommend for the people looking for a RA bull to use is 4L Supervision. I have seen quite a few of his offspring and really like the looks of them and they seem to still be pretty moderate. I have had the opportunity to use him yet but plan to this next breeding season. Anyway, just a few of my thoughts. Hope everyone has a happy and wonderful holliday.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I have seen several Mojito calves. The heifers get a little heavy fronted for me, granted if I used him on my cows I could breed alot of that off, but I'm not looking to fix a bulls problems by breeding him to my cows. I like bulls that compliment my cows features without bringing traits that I do not desire with them. I have also seen a bunch of supervision calves and really like most of them. I personally haven't used him as I don't care for his paternal grand sire, but that is my little quirk. I have used the 4L continuance bull and have gotten along with him pretty well if I use him on some of the bigger cows, he will moderate frame a little and I like mine bigger than most. I have not used Lancer for the reason that he is pretty moderate and alot of the calves I have seen out of him don't have enough bone in them to suit me. I would also like to change his daughters udder structure.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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OK - I'm going to stick my neck out on the chopping block - the following is strictly my oppinion which is worth exactly what it costs you here - NOTHING! So here we go a partial list of bulls I won't use. Each has their own reason, if you have questions about why on a particular bull -post it and we'll cover it.
Make Mimi,Ribeye, World Series, Catalist, Field Day, Doc Holliday, Lanser, Vacation, Mr Beef, Cherokee Canyon, Major Leage, Javelin, King Rob, Grand Canyon, Heavenly, Dr Phil, Cheyenne, Gravity, Romeo, Boone, Hi Ho, Pay Day. For those of you I have offended, I appologize - strictly bulls I won't use in my herd, you can make your own breeding decissions.
 

Show Dad

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OK, somebody get the guillotine while he's got his neck stuck out! :eek: ;)

RW - Thanks for the list. You hit the old Chief line genetics fairly hard. Is it mainly over lower structural problems?
 
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