What Red Angus bulls would be beneficial to starting a Durham Red program?

[aj]

I will agree that the only thing free in the cattle business is heterosis. However i think a bull buyer would rather buy a bull from an inbred line of composites that have been selected for economical important traits rather than some show guy who uses what is hot every year having bw'ts varying from 95-120 pounds and no selection for udders or marbling data. It is hard to argue against the controlled rotational 3 way cross and maximizing heterosis. After 3 generations of breeding a composite would get you some consistency. How many commercial cow calf deal has a perfect rotational crossing system? Only the good big ones.I say that 90% of shorthorn cattle are a joke in the real world and that the dr is a step in the right direction. If you are selling alot of purebred shorthorn bulls to commercial guys that is great and I commend you for it. On paper I loose the argument I guess. I stand corrected.

 

[knabe]

i would venture to say that 3 generations of composites will have more varibility than three generations of purebreds.  leachman has basically done what you are saying, ie foregoing the concept of a breed and focuses on results that suit his customers.  he does however sell a few high dollar bulls that fit into the "purebred" business model.

remember to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges of an inbred composite line vs a show guy.  take inbred composite and compare against inbred purebreds with same concepts.  really, that's all that's required to make a breed anyway, which is basically just what people did 200 years ago with maines, ie the draft mancelle with the shorthorns.  amazing how much diversity is left after that today in the fullbloods, notwithstanding TH and PHA which distort the phenotype.  would honestly like to have monkey mouth found to see if that had a phenotype as well in the heterozygous state and that we select for that unknowingly.  the ultimate 3 way cross show steer, PHA,TH,MM.

it's amazing how much change happens when a concept has to pay it's own bills.

 

[garybob]

I can't believe that I'm going to say this but aren't we all getting ahead of ourselves with all this DR talk. For the most part a large majority of us can't even put together a uniform set of commercial oriented females if someone called looking for one. I don't think that there are enough "commercial" females in the breed right now to have the DR program as Mr. Bolze envisioned it come to life. The better question would be what shorthorn lines should we be using to get foundation shorthorn cows in place to someday have a successful DR program. Right now ,for the most part, the DR program reflects the breed as a whole, with little real world use. I have many issues with the program to numerous to list on one post but as a breed we need to take a step back and take a serious look at where we fit in the cattle industry. Can I get a AMEN garybob.

Exactly, my feelings on this subject. However, we must gas the car  and make sure we have enough money, clothes, and food,before we drive cross-country to visit relatives we haven't seen in a period of greater than 30 years. We would have to win them back. Not just show up & say "how've y'all been?"
ITK, we gotta start somewhere, sometime. We're burnin' daylight. Have been for how long, now, as a breed?

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I really doubt that the Duram Red program will seiously effect my program. I sell semen only privately, am not planning on breeding my cows to a shorthorn bull (demand for the straight bred reds is still good) and I don't know enough about the SH breed or this program. How ever after reading the above posts about heterosis and commercial acceptability I have these thoughts - Chi-Maine, Sim-Brah, Brangus, Braunveih, Chi-Angus, Braford, RX3, Santa Gertrudes, Chi-Maine-Angus, Balancers, Stabilizers, and about all of the clubby bulls available today. Most of these "breeds" are commercialy accepted in their nich markets today. I'm not sure I see the difference between these and the D R's. As far as the number of viable females involved - if there is enough money in it people will find the cattle to fit the program.

 

[aj]

I canot argue the heterosis factor, except maybe how pure is a purebred angus if a little Holstein or chi is in there. Most commercial guys cull closer for natural selection then purebred guys do. If a cow looses a calf she is gone in the commercial sector. In most purebred herds if a cow looses a calf it's ...lets keep her another another year. She cost 2000$ we can't sell her. She only milks out of one quarter but since she cost 2000$ lets keep her around another year. Or she hasn't bred for two years but this might be the year if we superovulate her. She's only 5 years old. She is not practical and we have to heavily supplement her with protein tubs and we run 4 ton of alfalfa through her year but by god she's a purebred and her mother cost 5000$ so she must be good. Commercial guys don't want to buy a bull whose full brother cost 5000$ and her granddam is an all american(and has never raised a calf naturally because she got to fat as a show heifer). I'll put my head on the block. itn the cattle you consider easy keepers would starve to death in my enviroment. I'd hate to see the hard keeping shorthorns. If a cow looses a calf I dump her. If she is hard keeping I dump her. If she is a fence crawler or bad disposition I dump her. I cannot argue against the purebred is better for the f-1 factor but so many purebred people do absolutely no natural or common sense selection pressure. Alot of purebred show cattle would be culled out of progressive commercial herds because they couldn't make it.But by god she is a purebred. I really respect people like olhde that linebreed and don't chase fads and breed good linebred purebreds. I do think that purebreds that use stiff selection are better than composites. However how many "purebred breeders" select for cattle that commercial cattle people care about. :-*

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I canot argue the heterosis factor, except maybe how pure is a purebred angus if a little Holstein or chi is in there. Most commercial guys cull closer for natural selection then purebred guys do. If a cow looses a calf she is gone in the commercial sector. In most purebred herds if a cow looses a calf it's ...lets keep her another another year. She cost 2000$ we can't sell her. She only milks out of one quarter but since she cost 2000$ lets keep her around another year. Or she hasn't bred for two years but this might be the year if we superovulate her. She's only 5 years old. She is not practical and we have to heavily supplement her with protein tubs and we run 4 ton of alfalfa through her year but by god she's a purebred and her mother cost 5000$ so she must be good. Commercial guys don't want to buy a bull whose full brother cost 5000$ and her granddam is an all american(and has never raised a calf naturally because she got to fat as a show heifer). I'll put my head on the block. itn the cattle you consider easy keepers would starve to death in my enviroment. I'd hate to see the hard keeping shorthorns. If a cow looses a calf I dump her. If she is hard keeping I dump her. If she is a fence crawler or bad disposition I dump her. I cannot argue against the purebred is better for the f-1 factor but so many purebred people do absolutely no natural or common sense selection pressure. Alot of purebred show cattle would be culled out of progressive commercial herds because they couldn't make it.But by god she is a purebred. I really respect people like olhde that linebreed and don't chase fads and breed good linebred purebreds. I do think that purebreds that use stiff selection are better than composites. However how many "purebred breeders" select for cattle that commercial cattle people care about. :-*

I will agree that many purebred breeders don't cull as hard as they probably should, howeverif you are a purebred breeder that doesn't pay attention to what the commercial cattleman wants you probably won't be in business for very long. The percentage of bulls that are sold to purebred breeders is pretty small in most programs, the bulk of them are sold to commercial herds. You have to raise a saleable product if you make your living in the purebred business. I also realize that there are alot of purebred herds that are smaller and kept as a side line or a hobby and are not the sole source of income. Commercial buyers are my bred and butter and they keep me in business.

 

[Show Dad]

I know this is off subject, but I sure wish the show ring paid attention to the commercial sector as much as you do RW.