What would you do if..

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DL

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OK here is a question that could provoke some thoughtful and interesting responses

What would you do if you bred a PHAC cow and had a fabulous PHAC show heifer prospect. After describing the deal to potential buyers one family comes up with the big bucks for the heifer. Later they call back and say they now finally understand what PHAC really means and they want to return the heifer and want their money back?

What would you do? Would it matter if it was 1 day, 1 month or 1 year from the date of sale? Assume the heifer is in excellent condition and has been well taken care of....
 

shortyjock89

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I would take her back.  If I didn't do a good enough job explaining what PHA was to the customer, then it is my responsibility to take the heifer back and give a full refund.  I would probably apologize for not educating them to the best of my abilities. I know that some people would say though luck, but I can't do that.  It just wouldn't sit well with me.  I would want the same courtesy done for me, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it.
 

justme

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If I stated up front that its from a PHAC and it is a PHAC the calf is sold.  I can only do so much to educate everyone.  I hate to say it, ecspecially if they've had it a while I'd have to say sold.  It would take special circumstances for me to offer another calf to them to replace her.
 

chambero

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When it steps foot on their trailer its theirs.  That is no different than how it works at any sale - be it the sale barn or a high dollar purebred auction. 

I would have made a reasonable attempt at full disclosure and if they didn't understand what I was telling them that's their problem.  I shouldn't have to bear the financial burden of not having been able to sell it to the next person just because they weren't listening to me.  Someone who is not a serious breeder who is willing to spend big money on a heifer is just trying to buy a win in the show ring anyway.  The reality of the situation is the reason they want their money back is their kid has lost interest, they haven't won as much as they thought, etc. and they are just using the carreir status as an excuse. 

It's no different than when I've sold a calf that I know is gentle and someone calls complaining six months later that its wild.  Or the guy who called a few months later griping because he bought a few "old" six year Angus old cows from us.  They had their birth year branded on their side when he bought them.  His excuse of he didn't know what he was buying didn't hold much water with us.  You can't be expected to refund stupidity.  Of course he didn't turn into a repeat buyer either.

From watching what goes on at sales and shows the people that actually care about carrier status on show animals are very much in the minority.  I'm very surprised by my own observation, but I have seen little evidence otherwise.

By the way, I wouldn't be in the market for a high-dollar carrier animal.
 

knabe

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i think this goes under the not a verbal contract for that much money anyway.  get it in writing, otherwise a judge may decide for you and both parties will not only lose money, but future transactions between each other.  if the above was followed, i would not give them their money without something of equal value in return.  Perhaps as a requirement, a printout of the two most commonly linked articles along with bill of sale and acknowledgement of reading them on dotted line hopefully with more reading and comprehension than a software license.  the repeat customer is probably the most valuable.  so long as you don't annoy them with cold calls to sell knives!  a tough transition period ahead as the carriers search for equity (just like the housing market).
 

Jill

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In the state of Kansas any transaction has a 3 day cooling off period, if in that time they want to return anything they have the right to do so. 
If I know I have a PHAC animal I have tested that animal and the way the Maine papers are now it is stated in black and white on the registration paper, there is no need for a contract, if I have told you what it is and you still bought the animal, it is your animal.  The only thing I can think of that would be a legitimate reason to give a credit or like animal would be if the animal has not been flushed and doesn't breed. 
People have gotten into this mind set that if everything isn't perfect it has to be someone elses fault.  It isn't the sellers fault that an animal doesn't turn out the way you thought it should, that is just how life works, sometimes they turn out better.  We have a 5000.00 heifer that has been in the pasture since December, she was shown one time, she kicks, she isn't mean, but when she is tired of being messed with she started to kick.  We didn't call the breeder and cry that we wanted another one, that is a chance you take when you buy one.  If you buy a cripple or PHAC or a crappy one, you know up front what you're buying, you can't walk out there next month and think, why did I do that, how does that become the breeders problem?  I think DL's exact words on another post were stupidity on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part (or sumpin like that).
That being said, if this is a customer that I want to retain in the future and the heifer is in good shape and is one I would want to keep or one that can turn around and be resold then I would probably make my judgements based on those facts and try to work with them.
 

common sense

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Since Dragon Lady brought it up, there is one I’ve been wondering about for a long time too.  What if you sold a steer to a family and you told them it was a steer when they bought it and several months later they call and tell you that they can’t get it bred, that they wanted to buy a heifer and they finally figured out the difference and now they can’t get it pregnant.  Would you take it back?  Assume the steer has been very well taken care of. :)))
 

farmboy

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common sense said:
Since Dragon Lady brought it up, there is one I’ve been wondering about for a long time too.  What if you sold a steer to a family and you told them it was a steer when they bought it and several months later they call and tell you that they can’t get it bred, that they wanted to buy a heifer and they finally figured out the difference and now they can’t get it pregnant.  Would you take it back?  Assume the steer has been very well taken care of. :)))

WHAT! haha. I wouldn't take it back
 

ELBEE

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If you sold a bull with, fully disclosed, zero fertility to someone to breed cows with. Would you give them they'er money back when he did'nt settle cows?
 

knabe

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good one ELBEE.  something similar happened with Doc Bar, the great quarter horse, cutting sire, although there was a fertility contract.  one year he just went sterile, all the money changed hands, and then no babies.  they gave all the money back, it nearly bankrupted them, but they honored their word.  they also sold their place to kincaid the artist of "light", took doc bars burial plaque and wouldn't tell him where he was buried and didn't allow him to use doc bar ranch as the name of the ranch.
 

shorthorns r us

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had a guy ask me to come look at his sows.  he couldn't figure out why they weren't starting to look piggy.  figued it pretty quickly when i saw his herd BARROW!  unfortunately for me i was a crass 17 year old at thte time and i am pretty sure that i should apologize if i ever run into him again. :-\
 

knabe

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in college, our judging class coach would come up with phrases like, ok gang, here's a class of breeding barrows to see if we were in a judging stupor.
 

Jill

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common sense said:
Since Dragon Lady brought it up, there is one I’ve been wondering about for a long time too.  What if you sold a steer to a family and you told them it was a steer when they bought it and several months later they call and tell you that they can’t get it bred, that they wanted to buy a heifer and they finally figured out the difference and now they can’t get it pregnant.  Would you take it back?  Assume the steer has been very well taken care of. :)))
Not even on a good day.  No way
 

farmboy

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sold is sold is right and some one who buys a steer for the purpose of breeding can keep him. (clapping) If they want to buy a heifer they can but not a trade in of the steer...
 

DL

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common sense said:
Since Dragon Lady brought it up, there is one I’ve been wondering about for a long time too.  What if you sold a steer to a family and you told them it was a steer when they bought it and several months later they call and tell you that they can’t get it bred, that they wanted to buy a heifer and they finally figured out the difference and now they can’t get it pregnant.  Would you take it back?  Assume the steer has been very well taken care of. :)))

OK we assume the steer has been well take care of but what can we assume about the people who bought him??
 

OH Breeder

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SInce I have returned to the cattle business, I have a simple computer legal program - when i buy or sell cattle I get ALL parties to sign a simple contract.  I made the mistake of selling a bull on the word and trust and didn't get paid for 4 months after the person took the bull. I have no problem telling them of the potential risk etc. Educating them to the best of my knowledge, BUT the law does not recognize ignorance as an excuse. Just because they had an"Epiphany" I am not going to take the heifer back. No way. If the heifer wouldn't settle or breed then that is another story.
 

justintime

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I am still one who likes to think that there is some honour in this business, but I also know that there are some people who will try just about anything. In the case of the heifer that is a PHA carrier, if you have explained this to the buyer prior to the sale, and they still bought it, then it is a sale, in my opinion. The amount of time that has passed since the sale, will be about the only thing you have to consider. If it is only a few days, and the buyer returned and said they had changed their mind, I would probably let them pick another heifer. If it is a situation where several months have passed, I certainly would feel that it was a sale. It could be a case where they have taken the heifer to a few shows and found out she wasn't going to win the big banners, so they are trying to get out of her by claiming they did not understand PHA. If you have explained this when they were thinking of buying, there should be no issues and no comeback by them. After all, you shouldn't have to protect them from their own stupidity.

In almost all breed association santioned guarantees, it states that the animal becomes the property of the buyer when it is sold. I remember a $8000 bull falling and breaking his pelvis within a few minutes of being sold.

unfortuantely, there are some grey areas when it comes to some of these issues. In business, the buyer is supposed to be always right. I think there are some limits to this. I have replaced some bulls from time to time, that I probably did not have to, but sometimes you have to bite your lip and keep a buyer happy.
 
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