What's the animals used to determine shorthorn DNA.

[trevorgreycattleco]

The more I talk to people the more my curiosity is rising. I've been told it doesn't exsist!!!!! So if a breeder is paying a company to DNA verify the purity of his cattle is he wasting his money ? I think in angus or other breeds it may be different but I'm interested in shorthorns specifically. What animals where used as the baseline or whatever you want to call it?

 

[irishshorthorns]

Trump and Ayatollah? ;D

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Ha!!!! <beer>

 

[Okotoks]

Would they even have a test that covers all Shorthorn DNA. I have 2 vials of semen in the tank of an Auatralian bull born in 1959, Meriwong Royal Grant. His top side is all animals imported from the US in the 1950's.(hope to use it in a flush in the next year) I also have some semen from Four Point Royal 13th born in 1971 all polled beef breeding from the 60's. Would a Shorthorn DNA test encompass all bloodlines?

OAKWOOD DETERMINATION (A.S.H.B.) Red M54/52324
HIGHBANK DETERMINATION IMP. IN DAM.U.S.A.! (P) Red M57/02793
CEREMONIOUS DOROTHY 5TH (IMP. U.S.A.) (P) Roan F57/05683
Sire: HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734
COMMANDER IN CHIEF (A.S.H.B.) Red M54/23662
OAKWOOD LAVENDER 27TH (IMP U S A) (P) Red Little White F57/06188
GLEN KNOLLS LAVENDER 4TH (A.S.H.B.) Roan F54/92503
MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381
GUNDIBRI LADDIE 28TH (P) Roan M57/00527
GUNNAWARRA LADDIE 6TH (P) Roan M57/00895
GUNNAWARRA MAY (P) Red F57/01647
Dam: MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513
GUNNAWARRA RADIANT 6TH (P) Red M57/00411
MERIWONG AMENITY (P) Roan F57/05167
BOGAN AMENITY (P) White F57/03299

and a link to Four Point Royal 13th, some of his ancestors are before the pedigrees were computerised!

http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/extended_pedigree.cgi?_breedcode=MS&_countrycode=&_regnumberprefix=M&_regnumber=436180&_regnumbersuffix=&_association=21

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I have the same curiosity. Some guys tell that MAines and Shorthorn appears on same results as equalls, it's impossible for me as at least the 30% French native breed nust apppear as a different locus.

Please some one can inform NAMES or register of sampled animals, or all cattle was collect from commercial base. If the last is the option, will agree with irishshorthons and Trevor.

Is time to select and analise pure samples from registered cattle and name all donors with an actual and updated methodology.

Is funny as we are decoding DNA from old frozen mammoths and DNA with 50 years show so many errors! Maybe a Conspiracion Theory will be the answer!

Good topic and seeing that I'm not the unique curios with this matter.

(clapping)

 

[RyanChandler]

Brock, you're in luck! SJCC there in Ohio has publicly stated ALL of his cattle have been DNA verified as 100% shorthorns! I've reached out to him and others repeatedly trying to find out where I can get my hands on this test but, so far, all I've done is lose Facebook friends  (lol) in the process.  It seems this is a VERY sensitive subject and any attempt to get in on the whereabouts of this test is perceived as a personal attack of character.  Rest assured though, a breeder only rivaled by Haumont and Elbee  (lol) there in your home state has the answers! If only he could cash the checks he writes...

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Why is this such a difficult question? What are the baseline animals in angus? Surely somebody knows. Other wise all the money pumped into this deal is BS. If a guy buys shorthorn cows, a shorthorn bull, DNA tests them. Promotes the fact they are DNA tested and pure. Purity is wrongly grouped with consistency. Okotoks asks a great question. Can a DNA test cover all animals? Why can't anybody answer this? I smell a rat. The 50k chip to. Another sham wow to buy on the late night infomercial.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

  waiti, wait, wait...stop the train a moment!

I'm not understanding a point! People are making confusion between a deep DNA philogenetic analises that is able to check outside breed infusions on late generation with a simple and single parentage analises? Or with a single marbling/coat color analise?

No no no...

Different tests, differents answers!

Ryan, already got your tests?  (thumbsup) (clapping) (clapping)

 

[Waukaru]

Brock,
The topic has involved many subjects at once.  We can parent verify shorthorn cattle with a DNA test.  If there is a recorded DNA sample on both parents, it can be proved that an animal is from both parents.  If there is not a record of both parents, it can be determined if one parent (the one with the recorded sample) is in the next generation of the pedigree.

Shorthorn cattle have not verified a 50K chip test yet.  The 50K test would be used to increase the accuracies of existing EPD's.  Once verified,  a non-parent could be 50 K tested at a very young age.  It could have the same effect on EPD accuracies as recording 5 to 10 progeny from proper contemporary groups having data submitted. 

The breed could use this technology to gain accuracy on any trait it verifies.  The verification process is expensive and time consuming.  The population that you use must have high accuracies and a strong prevalence in the breed.  The ASA has a list of cattle that it is asking DNA samples to help with verification. 

I am not sure about whether or not you can test to determine if there are outside breed influences in an individual at this time.  Assuming you are questioning 8, 10, or more generations back.  Since the ASA has maintained an open herd book since the early 1980's I would assume that this population would be very small.

Toby Jordan

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Thanks Toby. Interesting. So if a animal is DNA tested, it only proves that is in fact a calf of the parents IF the sire and dam are also DNA verified? I guess I assumed that ALL shorthorns were DNA tested for purity based on a set peramiter for being pure shorthorn. I assumed to establish TRUE shorthorn DNA that some samples were needed. I totally missed the point I'm learning. The technology isn't there yet. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

 

[shortyjock89]

A breed that has allowed grade cattle to breed to purebred status for 40 years and has allowed cattle with no pedigrees in at purebred or 3/4 for as long can, in no way, establish a test for DNA purity in the breed. What is pure?

 

[knabe]

Nothing is pure, not even intentions or idealism.

 

[aj]

One thing that bugs me is that...........I don't think we can generate enough data to link ever thing up. The cattle tested probably won't have progency tested or even have honest birthweights. People will try and angle to promote the cattle they all ready have with the tests. ..........instead of throwing everything in the pot and let god sort it out........to identify a superior sire. If an old bull shows up with good results......there may not be enough amps left to do a wide use of him. I would be interested in how Dover cattle would do. Waukura has turned in alot of data over the years. I would be thrilled fi we could id a superior sire.........that could be used widely over the breed. If its the pheasant bull of jit's or whatever. I'm just afraid data won't be available. People will look at this as only a way to promote the cattle they NOW have. jmo

 

[knabe]

hey pull toy.

make one for goodness sakes.

your cattle for the most part are all mixed up.

you took a TH bull to denver, now you add red angus after adding maine's.

you don't have anything that you want others to make.

buy a bull, some cows, generate some calves and make some data and submit it to the association and retain ownership and get the data from the plant.

why is this so hard for you to do?

why do you continually want to use other people's herds, money while badmouthing them the whole way.  will you ever hold yourself to account to produce anything?

what is so wrong with promoting cattle people have now?  what do you want them to do with them?

seriously aj, you need to get off your rear and walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

how much do you get paid to post the same post over and over and over.

 

[RyanChandler]

I was hoping you'd reply to the OP, Knabe, as I'm under the impression you're one of the most knowledgable people on this board regarding the topic at hand?

 

[Okotoks]

I was hoping you'd reply to the OP, Knabe, as I'm under the impression you're one of the most knowledgable people on this board regarding the topic at hand?

I was hoping Knabe or someone with some knowledge on DNA would because I sure don't know if such a DNA test exists and what animals in the herd book it would be based on. If a breed DNA test is available how expensive is it and exactly what group of Shorthorns are you trying to identify? If it's to identify only Shorthorns in the Coates herdbooks up to 1822 and  prior it is pretty useless in my opinion. There were a couple of prominent Scottish herds that would not give their pedigree information to Coates. So even though Robertson of Ladykirk founded his herd on Ketton, Barmpton and Colling breeding he did not buy in to the pedigree registration system. "Robertson held that the attempt to limit the choice of cattle reared for practical farm purposes to such as might chance to be bred within herd-book lines constituted an unreasonable check upon individual judgement and would prove a bar to real progress." Quoted from SHORT_HORN CATTLE published 1909. (I personally believe in a herdbook but if Robertson was alive today he could find endless examples to support his claim!)The point here is his stock appears in almost every Scottish pedigree so you would excluding them as well. Another breeder that would be excluded since much of his foundation came from Ladykirk would be Rennie of Phantassie. Who is going to decide what the relevant "Shorthorn" bloodlines are? I have no problem with anyone selecting for any type or strain but I really don't think it will advance the breed throwing out most of today's bloodlines. That's assuming a test can even identify them.

 

[aj]

How far away are we from cloning a bull from frozen semen? Or is it even possible? Last I knew you needed an ear or something. 20 years from now?

 

[RyanChandler]

I was hoping you'd reply to the OP, Knabe, as I'm under the impression you're one of the most knowledgable people on this board regarding the topic at hand?

I was hoping Knabe or someone with some knowledge on DNA would because I sure don't know if such a DNA test exists and what animals in the herd book it would be based on. If a breed DNA test is available how expensive is it and exactly what group of Shorthorns are you trying to identify? If it's to identify only Shorthorns in the Coates herdbooks up to 1822 and  prior it is pretty useless in my opinion. There were a couple of prominent Scottish herds that would not give their pedigree information to Coates. So even though Robertson of Ladykirk founded his herd on Ketton, Barmpton and Colling breeding he did not buy in to the pedigree registration system. "Robertson held that the attempt to limit the choice of cattle reared for practical farm purposes to such as might chance to be bred within herd-book lines constituted an unreasonable check upon individual judgement and would prove a bar to real progress." Quoted from SHORT_HORN CATTLE published 1909. (I personally believe in a herdbook but if Robertson was alive today he could find endless examples to support his claim!)The point here is his stock appears in almost every Scottish pedigree so you would excluding them as well. Another breeder that would be excluded since much of his foundation came from Ladykirk would be Rennie of Phantassie. Who is going to decide what the relevant "Shorthorn" bloodlines are? I have no problem with anyone selecting for any type or strain but I really don't think it will advance the breed throwing out most of today's bloodlines. That's assuming a test can even identify them.

I guess I don't follow you. What do you mean by "what group" of shorthorns would be identified? Is the obvious answer not "fullbloods- those w/o any outside influence?"

I don't think any of those you've listed would be excluded.  Shorthorns were a stabilized breed long before the Coates herd book so whether these breeders refused to give their pedigree info to him or not seems irrelevant to me.  If they don't have outside influence, they should all trace back to the foundation animals?

I'd be satisfied using any of the animals on this page as a baseline.  All from the 19 teens and 20s.
http://puregrassbeef.com/old_shorthorn_photos

Id use this guy real quick like

 

[aj]

Will the 50k deal make genestar and all those companies irrelevant?

 

[Okotoks]

I was hoping you'd reply to the OP, Knabe, as I'm under the impression you're one of the most knowledgable people on this board regarding the topic at hand?

I was hoping Knabe or someone with some knowledge on DNA would because I sure don't know if such a DNA test exists and what animals in the herd book it would be based on. If a breed DNA test is available how expensive is it and exactly what group of Shorthorns are you trying to identify? If it's to identify only Shorthorns in the Coates herdbooks up to 1822 and  prior it is pretty useless in my opinion. There were a couple of prominent Scottish herds that would not give their pedigree information to Coates. So even though Robertson of Ladykirk founded his herd on Ketton, Barmpton and Colling breeding he did not buy in to the pedigree registration system. "Robertson held that the attempt to limit the choice of cattle reared for practical farm purposes to such as might chance to be bred within herd-book lines constituted an unreasonable check upon individual judgement and would prove a bar to real progress." Quoted from SHORT_HORN CATTLE published 1909. (I personally believe in a herdbook but if Robertson was alive today he could find endless examples to support his claim!)The point here is his stock appears in almost every Scottish pedigree so you would excluding them as well. Another breeder that would be excluded since much of his foundation came from Ladykirk would be Rennie of Phantassie. Who is going to decide what the relevant "Shorthorn" bloodlines are? I have no problem with anyone selecting for any type or strain but I really don't think it will advance the breed throwing out most of today's bloodlines. That's assuming a test can even identify them.

I guess I don't follow you. What do you mean by "what group" of shorthorns would be identified? Is the obvious answer not "fullbloods- those w/o any outside influence?"

I don't think any of those you've listed would be excluded.  Shorthorns were a stabilized breed long before the Coates herd book so whether these breeders refused to give their pedigree info to him or not seems irrelevant to me.  If they don't have outside influence, they should all trace back to the foundation animals?

I'd be satisfied using any of the animals on this page as a baseline.  All from the 19 teens and 20s.
http://puregrassbeef.com/old_shorthorn_photos

Id use this guy real quick like

One of my favourite lines from the past is the Avondale/Browndale bulls but they were unfortunately before AI.
I was referring to the fact that all through Shorthorn history there have been cattle in the herd book that either were not pure or had no pedigrees or that were frowned on by some breeders. The Seventeens imported into the US before the establishment of the Coates herdbook, prior to that the "Alloy cattle " of Collings that were included in the first herd book with documented crosses of Galloway, the SFA cattle in Australia, reclaimed shorthorns with no pedigrees, new bllodlines allowed into the herdbook in Scotland after 4 crosses in the early 1900's, Australian Weebollabolla, Lincoln Red Shorthorns, Milking shorthorns reintroduced in the 70's, it's a long list. Some are pure, some have been in the breed so long you would need to be a detective to find them but they were not pure. Who gets to decide?